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3 months ago ::
Feb 23, 2013 - 2:29AM
#1
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I’m having a problem with some of my players’ motivations. This is my first time DMing a campaign, and I had all the players give me their characters’ backstories and I put them together to make a world- I started the first session with them meeting in a town and giving each of their characters a reason to team up to get to the bottom of whatever brought their characters there. The more info they gave before the first session, the more I worked their character into the world, etc. Everything seemed to be going well, ignoring the hiccups of me being new to DMing. I might have made a mistake at this point: two of my players wanted to change characters after the party reached level 3. I said it was okay, not really thinking about it. They introduced their new players at the most recent session, and I realized I should have pushed for more details before we all got to the table. Essentially now they have two characters that do not fit into the world – they came to the table with an elven prince (and his buddy) from an ancient kingdom that was destroyed by a drow invasion and as a last-ditch effort they opened a portal to the future and jumped through it. I just…don’t know what to do with that. I continued running the adventure, but I couldn’t think of a reason for them to be there at all. They also keep making stuff up about the past that I’ve never okayed, and therefore make no sense with the current timeline, and then telling the other players. I want them to be able to play the characters, but when I was composing the campaign time travel wasn’t something I thought about, and it’s really messing up continuity (and confusing the hell out of me). Problem is they’ve already played a session with the new characters, and can’t really retcon a whole gaming session. Their characters are running around searching for clues about a fallen elven empire and how to time travel back there, while everyone else is trying to pursue the current enemy and figure out his evil plans (and don’t care about the elven empire that no one remembers). I also realized that two of the mini bosses don’t make sense anymore – one was the old mentor of player A and the other was the thought-to-be-dead son of player B. I want my players to play he characters they want, but I also want them to feel like their characters actually have a stake in what’s happening, and they seem to want to pursue a plotline that I made no plans for and I see no way of meshing the two together. I've been putting off meeting fo the next game because I just don't know where to go from here. Any advice?
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3 months ago ::
Feb 23, 2013 - 4:00AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2007
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I would suggest sitting down and talking to the players, and telling them the problems you're having. Ask if they can help you find a way to work their characters into the campaign in a way that both makes sense with your ideas, and incorporates the parts of the characters they want. Ask them for a reason they would travel and adventure with the other main characters, and ask the other players for reasons why they would accept these two new characters.
Don't just tell them that the in-character information they make up is wrong, but run with it, and use it as ideas for future plots/characters/encounters. If something they say is completely unacceptable for some reason, then just correct them when they say it, as if the character mis-remembered a fact. Remember that until the party knows something about the history of your world, you can just change it, and they'll never know!
As for the 'mini-bosses' - Have the party encountered them yet, and know the connections? If not, just change it! Make them connected to another party member, or somehow connected to the new characters.
One last thought - I agree with the often suggested idea on this forum that you should incorporate ideas from players into the campaign as much as possible, but I personally struggle with improvisation. I do 'shut down' player ideas when the occur, purely because I don't have time to think through the consequences. However, I try to note the goals or ideas for what could happen from PCs, so that a few weeks later I can bring it back in a way that I'm comfortable with running. If you can get the players of the new characters to 'play along' with the existing characters' goals for now, then it gives you more time to think about the plotline they want to pursue later.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 23, 2013 - 4:03AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Dec 28, 2012
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You are 100% right that you shouldn't have allowed them to switch before looking at their background. In fact, you should never allow anyone to introduce background elements without giving you time to think about it.
Take these players aside and explain them what you perceive as the problem with their new characters.
Ask them if they might switch back to their old characters. This seems to be the easiest solution.
If they don't want to, ask them to help you come up with reasons for them to be there that you can integrate in the existing campaign.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 23, 2013 - 10:51AM
#4
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In general time travel is a bad idea, it messes things up.
But if you do allow it, rememberthat if they can time travel, so can others. It means that history might not be as they remember it. The elven kingdom might have never existed.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 23, 2013 - 11:29AM
#5
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This is one of the issues with games that have plotlines. If a character dies or changes, it can disrupt your well-meaning plans.
That said, a solution is to ask them framed, leading questions that point back to your plot and integrate them accordingly. It sounds to me, based on their sudden interest in establishing events and history in the world, that they are craving some level of narrative control, which is understandable. So start off with something like, "Yes, the eladrin chronomancers said they detected a time device in this era, and the [current enemy the party is currently pursuing] has some clues that can help you find it. What minor role does this [current enemy] have with regard to the drow invasion in the past?"
See what they say, accept it, and add onto it to make it fit. Ask additional follow-up questions (remember, frame them to refer to your plot) to flesh it out and make it cool. Then use it for the gift that it is.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 23, 2013 - 1:35PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2007
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I would suggest sitting down and talking to the players, and telling them the problems you're having. Ask if they can help you find a way to work their characters into the campaign in a way that both makes sense with your ideas, and incorporates the parts of the characters they want. Ask them for a reason they would travel and adventure with the other main characters, and ask the other players for reasons why they would accept these two new characters.
Don't just tell them that the in-character information they make up is wrong, but run with it, and use it as ideas for future plots/characters/encounters. If something they say is completely unacceptable for some reason, then just correct them when they say it, as if the character mis-remembered a fact. Remember that until the party knows something about the history of your world, you can just change it, and they'll never know!
As for the 'mini-bosses' - Have the party encountered them yet, and know the connections? If not, just change it! Make them connected to another party member, or somehow connected to the new characters.
One last thought - I agree with the often suggested idea on this forum that you should incorporate ideas from players into the campaign as much as possible, but I personally struggle with improvisation. I do 'shut down' player ideas when the occur, purely because I don't have time to think through the consequences. However, I try to note the goals or ideas for what could happen from PCs, so that a few weeks later I can bring it back in a way that I'm comfortable with running. If you can get the players of the new characters to 'play along' with the existing characters' goals for now, then it gives you more time to think about the plotline they want to pursue later.
This is really good advice. Your two players that have created new characters might actually be the ones that can suggest solutions to your problems of character and story fit. I realize you feel they created the problem for you, but they do sound like they have the imagination to fix it. You don't always have to be the one that figures everything out, and it doesn't have to be straight away.
Iserith is very good at getting players motivations and buy-in, I would pick his brain if you need too.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 23, 2013 - 8:27PM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2010
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they came to the table with an elven prince (and his buddy) from an ancient kingdom that was destroyed by a drow invasion and as a last-ditch effort they opened a portal to the future and jumped through it. I just…don’t know what to do with that.
Sounds like there's not much you need to do at this point of time. They gave you a plothook(drow following the time travelers), and it should be fine.
but I couldn’t think of a reason for them to be there at all
Let the players decide that. It's their characters. So far it seems like it's to avoid the drow, and get back home. Leave it alone for an adventure hook later. Tell them they need a couple reasons to go off and have adventures that don't relate to getting their way back.
They also keep making stuff up about the past that I’ve never okayed, and therefore make no sense with the current timeline, and then telling the other players.
Ask them to write it down instead, and give it to you. Tell them that since you made the world, you need to make sure the info will fit. After all, you are aware of things they are not. Don't forget that you have veto powers if it starts getting out of control.
I also realized that two of the mini bosses don’t make sense anymore – one was the old mentor of player A and the other was the thought-to-be-dead son of player B.
Keep em in there. Not every adventure needs a personal connection to a current character. Everybody has family and friends. These enemies just have a more detailed backstory is all.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 23, 2013 - 8:48PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Sep 22, 2007
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If they are basically trying to introduce stuff for their own power gain, then you do need to get them to stop via player to DM reasoning.
As for 'fixing' the derailments in game - that is easy. The pair of them are either crazy delusional, or outright conniving liars. So let them spin what ever tales they like, and when their lies produce no fruit, the rest of the party can do a collective eyebrow raise and say 'uhh huh - prince, was it?'
So there are two issues, one is players exerting disruptive narative influence, which you fix in the real world, and the other is the narative disruption that they've already caused, which can be either ignored through effective counter-narative, or you can run with it and make it work - or somthing in between.
Anyway - it is a good opportunity for everyone to understand that they all have a stake in each other's enjoyment, and thus a responsibility for not being a donkey-like critter.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 24, 2013 - 5:12AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2012
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I think I'd agree with Iserith - frame some questions to 'force' them back into your plot, but without shutting them down. If they wanted to change character, then chances are it was because these new ones were cooler (more thematic / better optimised / intriguing story / partnership now) than their previous ones. I'd say roll with the punches rather than say no to them.
- If the details they are suggesting don't particularly matter to the plot ("Oh hey, back in my day this church used to a brothel!") let it slide, or maybe reward them for being interested in roleplaying.
- If the details are making a major problem, maybe correct them? Don't phrase it as "this is my story - back off!" but as "Ah, Bob must have heard a tall tale about that!"
- If the details are cooler than what you had planned - run with it!
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3 months ago ::
Feb 24, 2013 - 5:22AM
#10
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In general I think it's good DM advice not to set up to much detailed encounters in advance. Unless you do a lot of railroading the players will often not do things as you planned them.The story you're telling is a cooperative effort between the players and the DM, where the DM makes the world and the players are the main actors.
Now it does sound like these players are also trying to make the world. That's your territory. The line between player background and inventing new parts of the world can get blurry if you're not playing in an established enironment like Forgotten Realms or Eberron so give them some space as well.
I don't think they can be outright lairs as someone suggested, in a game like this you actually need the stats and skills for that. But given that their background involves time travel, things probably didn't happen as they remembered them. They might remember King Alfred III, but he never existed as his parents were murdered as infants in the Great Regicide. Make stuff up. It can lead to some interesting role playing if non-timetravelling characters in the world remember things differently, say for example a really old elf or dragon you encounter.
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