EA, I don't really think that that's an objective assessment. If nue got hit with entice gift, one could assume that he was probably playing a low level. If you want to go with minimum to maximum possible level the spell could have been cast, your looking at a level 3 wizard/cleric to a 4th level bard. Assuming their enemy was level 3-4, in order for it to be a challenge they would have to be anywhere from level 1-4 themselves. In those levels there are very few ways to shore up resistances to will saves, save for class features. As a barbarian, the best nue probably had was his +2 to will saves for raging, and even assuming that he had a 12 Wis (which is being generous as it's not a priority stat for a barbarian) he would have had anywhere from a 3-4 will save well in a rage vs a DC of base 13 (assuming the lowest needed ability modifier to cast the spell) and not including other enhancements. Roughly that means he had close to a 50/50 chance to pass or save given the circumstances.
First of all, Steadfast Determination. Second, Locked Gauntlet beats Entice Gift. One round duration sucks like that.
As I said, it's your own damned fault.
As another point, there are plenty of ways to disarm a fighter/barbarian of their primary weapons. Heck, a simple use of the spell grease can ruin a melee users day at low levels, just to name one.
And you mean to tell me your Whirling Frenzy barbarian is going to fail such a low level reflex save?
It seems there are plenty of ways to end up without one's weapon. We also use a critical hit/fumble option chart, which has several weapon loss outcomes.
The high sword low ax weapon style feat would be the awnser to that. It's a pretty intensive feat tree requiring improved trip, two weapon fighting, weapon focus with either a bastard sword, longsword, scimitar or short sword, and weapon focus yet again with either a battleaxe, handaxe, or dwarven waraxe. What it does is when you use the weapons you have focus with and hit with each of them you get a free trip attempt against the target you hit. Since its so feat intensive however it's usually best pulled of by a build roughly going wolf totem barbarian 2/fighter 2/ranger 2 or some such progression. It has it's merits, I think there was a rather nice fighter build that utilized the feat to good effect a wile back before tome of battle came out and gave better options. I think the build was called lightning jack or something to that effect? Tempest would probably know off hand.
Um... why blow a -ton of feats, when a guisarme/spiked gauntlet combo doesn't cost ANY? I'm still not seeing the logic.
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Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
First of all, Steadfast Determination. Second, Locked Gauntlet beats Entice Gift. One round duration sucks like that.
There are plenty of other possibilities, EA, including things like time hop if you think a Fortitude or Reflex save is the way to prevent it.
Show me the complete build you think is going to avoid all possible weapon loss with a two-hander, and I'll show you where it still has holes. You can easily go on about things like Steadfast Determination and so forth, but I've yet to see a build using all the relevant defenses to block everything at once.
Um... why blow a -ton of feats, when a guisarme/spiked gauntlet combo doesn't cost ANY? I'm still not seeing the logic.
The reason to do it would be to keep making regular attacks in addition to having the trip attacks. Using High Sword Low Axe, you hit normally with both weapons to get your free trip attack. If you succeed, you then also make your free attack from Improved Trip.
I can certainly see some shortcomings, but combining the trip with regular attacks would presumably be the idea of the method.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The high sword low ax weapon style feat would be the awnser to that. It's a pretty intensive feat tree requiring improved trip, two weapon fighting, weapon focus with either a bastard sword, longsword, scimitar or short sword, and weapon focus yet again with either a battleaxe, handaxe, or dwarven waraxe. What it does is when you use the weapons you have focus with and hit with each of them you get a free trip attempt against the target you hit. Since its so feat intensive however it's usually best pulled of by a build roughly going wolf totem barbarian 2/fighter 2/ranger 2 or some such progression. It has it's merits, I think there was a rather nice fighter build that utilized the feat to good effect a wile back before tome of battle came out and gave better options. I think the build was called lightning jack or something to that effect? Tempest would probably know off hand.
Um... why blow a -ton of feats, when a guisarme/spiked gauntlet combo doesn't cost ANY? I'm still not seeing the logic.
Well, like I said, before tome of battle came out it was a pretty decent contender in terms of action economy for attacks and tripping. The build I reference and EA listed (Jack B. Quick) got a larg amount of attacks via tripping shenanigans. Personally I would favor the spiked gauntlet Guisarme combo for it's simplicity however.
EA, I don't really think that that's an objective assessment. If nue got hit with entice gift, one could assume that he was probably playing a low level. If you want to go with minimum to maximum possible level the spell could have been cast, your looking at a level 3 wizard/cleric to a 4th level bard. Assuming their enemy was level 3-4, in order for it to be a challenge they would have to be anywhere from level 1-4 themselves. In those levels there are very few ways to shore up resistances to will saves, save for class features. As a barbarian, the best nue probably had was his +2 to will saves for raging, and even assuming that he had a 12 Wis (which is being generous as it's not a priority stat for a barbarian) he would have had anywhere from a 3-4 will save well in a rage vs a DC of base 13 (assuming the lowest needed ability modifier to cast the spell) and not including other enhancements. Roughly that means he had close to a 50/50 chance to pass or save given the circumstances.
First of all, Steadfast Determination. Second, Locked Gauntlet beats Entice Gift. One round duration sucks like that.
As I said, it's your own damned fault.
As another point, there are plenty of ways to disarm a fighter/barbarian of their primary weapons. Heck, a simple use of the spell grease can ruin a melee users day at low levels, just to name one.
And you mean to tell me your Whirling Frenzy barbarian is going to fail such a low level reflex save?
It seems there are plenty of ways to end up without one's weapon. We also use a critical hit/fumble option chart, which has several weapon loss outcomes.
Also, still curious as to how/why scimitar+handaxe is good for trippers.
High Sword, Low Ax. Aren't you familliar with Jack B. Quick, the build that gets seven free attacks whenever you attack it?
Steadfast determination is an okay feat (though I think I would personally prefer other options like power attack if I was a straight barbarian at low levels instead of sinking feats into it) but if your not aware, nue tends to play pretty basic games that don't utilize a lot of the books (as a matter of fact, he usually plays pretty strictly core and I'm rather surprised he ran into that spell) so odds are he simply didn't have accesses to the feat. Remember, optimization is in part keyed to your resources. Also, depending on if he was playing a level 1, there could simply be the chance that he couldn't afford a chain gauntlet (however saying what he could and couldn't have is pretty much conjecture that could go on for a wile if one is to assume what he had via wbl).
One a secondary note, reading grease from the SRD:
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and on grapple checks made to resist or escape a grapple or to escape a pin.
Material Component
A bit of pork rind or butter.
If you look at the spell, it stats the the object needs to make the saving throw initially, so the first round something has grease cast on it you basically auto drop it if the item fails the save (with it's base save bonus of +0, +1 if its master work) with the character making reflex saves on additional rounds to try and pick it back up. Also, who said nue was playing a barbarian with whirling frenzy, and how does that apply to a myriad of other low level melee specialists who don't have good reflex saves, depend on having a high (or even moderate) Dex when this tactic is used?
I don't post very often, though I'm always here. Mayhaps I should make myself clear to the "well-read monkey".
Our group does not play by your competitive rules. We instead play a story type game. I'm sure you would be annoyed. LOTS.
Our players/playing is limited to core 3.5
The two of us that switch off as DM's "cheat" in using whatever new rules we find, for the bbeg's, and of course we all read lots of splat books, it's not like we're in a bubble.
I'm not asking you to be part of my game, only to understand that I'm a minority of the game that plays differently. Get over it.
So you're saying you don't know how to play, yet you're coming in and bringing in a pointless story that can get loled at with a 5gp core item, and making it sound like it matters?
Considering you just got the cost wrong on a locked gauntlet, maybe you should brush up on your basics before you go criticizing others.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The locked gauntlet isn't even a very good option for an adventurer in a lot of cases, since you aren't wandering around all day with weapons attached to your hands on the off-chance of a sudden battle when you've got everyday uses for those fingers and thumbs. If you know you're about to fight an enemy in a fairly flat, open area without the need to switch to any other weapon or handled item, a locked gauntlet may be useful if your opponent likes to disarm. The rest of the time, it's typically a hindrance.
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The locked gauntlet isn't even a very good option for an adventurer in a lot of cases, since you aren't wandering around all day with weapons attached to your hands on the off-chance of a sudden battle when you've got everyday uses for those fingers and thumbs. If you know you're about to fight an enemy in a fairly flat, open area without the need to switch to any other weapon or handled item, a locked gauntlet may be useful if your opponent likes to disarm. The rest of the time, it's typically a hindrance.
Why? Most martial-types easily have the strength for it, and if there's a wagon, they can just sit in the wagon once the casters are done preparing spells until it's time to stab crap. Plus, if you have a single round of prep time, not unreasonable at all, then you could lock it before combat.
Ha. I guess I foolishly hoped that a question about spiked gauntlets would not devolve. It seems like every thread I have found on them seems to go this route.
The OP wanted to know if a character could use a weapon while also wearing spiked gauntlets. I got my answer: yes, he can. I also wanted to know if he can use a shield while wearing spiked gauntlets. I am not sure I got the answer to that question but I will have to scroll through the first few posts to double check; someone might have answered it. I get the sense that these questions are not discussed in the books.
Neue, it sounds like we potentially play a similar styled game. My players are limited to mostly core but I occasionally select non-core stuff to toss at them. I also use MM1-MM4 (not sure is MM2, MM3, & MM4 are considered core). There are lots of stories going in our game and we've not had a combat in the past 2 sessions although one is essentially guaranteed tomorrow (of course, everytime I think something is guaranteed, my players decide to do something totally outrageous).
Although we have a number of non-core books, we do not use them often (Libris Mortis has been used a number of times for monsters). I rarely used non-core books in the past either. Most of my players choose skills and equipment that optimizes their character concept, even if it is not the most optimal build for numbers.
I often do the same thing for the NPCs. I do appreciate hearing the pros and cons of whether spiked gauntlets are the best option but the story behind this NPC is more important. Ultimately, I decided against the spiked gauntlets since I decided spiked gauntlets and shields do not mix. I went with a flail and spiked light steel shield.
You could wear the Spiked Gauntlet while wearing a shield on that arm but being able to use the gauntlet as a weapon with tne shield equiped depends on the type of shield you're using. A Light or Heavy Shield, because of the way they're constructed, requires you to grasp a handle in order to wield it. With sich a shield you could not use the gauntlet as a weapon at all unless the shield were sundered or lost in some way. You could use the spiked gauntlet to attack with a buckler strapped to that arm since your hand is free to use for other things, but, unless you have the feat Improved Buckler Defense, you would lose the buckler's shield bonus to your AC for the duration of any round in which you chose to attack with that gauntlet.
-ton of feats, when a guisarme/spiked gauntlet combo doesn't cost ANY? I'm still not seeing the logic.
