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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:01AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Feb 20, 2013
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So I have a character and I want to ultimately take the Strike & Fade feat; which has the (unfortunate?) pre-requisite of the Shift feat.
Shift allows you to move up to 5 feet on your turn without incurring Opportunity Attack. I can see how that might be moderately useful, but can't we already "Withdraw" anyway without incurring? And then you get to move 10 feet instead of 5. Sure, you cannot attack when you withdraw, but nothing is stopping you from moving again (your action is Withdraw, then you move).
Shift would be "Move 5' away from enemy" then "Hustle" or "Attack" but I don't see much usefulness here over the previous option. If I chose to Hustle, I may as well just Withdraw and get 5' further away. If I choose Attack, why am I bothering to shift away at all anyway? Especially since I'm not using a reach weapon.
I can't even see how this would be useful for someone making *RANGED* attacks. I can't find anything about shooting in melee incurring OA, or even Disadvantage. The only thin I can think of is be able to shift back 5' and shoot a guy, and enable an ally to block interposing space if he goes before the enemy does.
There must be something I'm missing that makes Shift useful, right? Maybe "Strike and Fade" should just say "this counts as 2 feats" and be done with it.
Is Shift meant to only be useful when used in concert with other feats, like Warding Polearm or Charge?
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:19AM
#2
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Shift is a good feat to a ranged attacker or person with a reach weapon. I do agree it is an odd prerequisite for Strike and Fade. I don't see why it needs a prerequisite beyond 9th level.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:21AM
#3
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You need it to attack someone who's NOT in your face.
Like if the orc is next to the wizard, and your fighter is next to another orc, and you want to save the wizard.
Not neccicaraly the best feat (not that feat's are that strong in general), but it still has it's uses. And yes, it's better when combined with charge or warding polearm.
Also, i think ranged attacks provoke if you shoot someone else (like shift away from the dragonshield and shoot the shaman).
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:21AM
#4
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Shift is a good feat to a ranged attacker or person with a reach weapon. I do agree it is an odd prerequisite for Strike and Fade. I don't see why it needs a prerequisite beyond 9th level.
I don't think it needs any prerequisit.
guides
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:22AM
#5
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So I have a character and I want to ultimately take the Strike & Fade feat; which has the (unfortunate?) pre-requisite of the Shift feat.
Shift allows you to move up to 5 feet on your turn without incurring Opportunity Attack. I can see how that might be moderately useful, but can't we already "Withdraw" anyway without incurring? And then you get to move 10 feet instead of 5. Sure, you cannot attack when you withdraw, but nothing is stopping you from moving again (your action is Withdraw, then you move).
Shift would be "Move 5' away from enemy" then "Hustle" or "Attack" but I don't see much usefulness here over the previous option. If I chose to Hustle, I may as well just Withdraw and get 5' further away. If I choose Attack, why am I bothering to shift away at all anyway? Especially since I'm not using a reach weapon.
I can't even see how this would be useful for someone making *RANGED* attacks. I can't find anything about shooting in melee incurring OA, or even Disadvantage. The only thin I can think of is be able to shift back 5' and shoot a guy, and enable an ally to block interposing space if he goes before the enemy does.
There must be something I'm missing that makes Shift useful, right? Maybe "Strike and Fade" should just say "this counts as 2 feats" and be done with it.
Is Shift meant to only be useful when used in concert with other feats, like Warding Polearm or Charge?
If you are flanked or have 3 or more creatures adjacent to you you can't move at all without using your action to disengage with the ability to shift.
Edit: you can't move without taking opportunity attacks.
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Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:55AM
#6
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Date Joined:
May 22, 2003
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Shooting an enemy at point blank range with a ranged weapon, or even a spell, does not incur any negative modifiers or opportunity actions against you. 
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:01PM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 22, 2003
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Disengage is an action, you cannot attack in the same round you disengage.
Withdraw is not an action described in the current iteration of the playtest.
The Shift feat allows you to move out of an opponent's reach for the purposes of gaining a clear shot, because opponent's provide cover if you attempt to shoot or reach-jab at a target on the opposite side of them.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:41PM
#8
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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The issue is not what the shift feat is useful for. The issue is why the shift feat is a prerequisite for the strike and fade feat. He understands why the shift feat is useful in the abstract -- just not to him. But the strike and fade feat is useful, but he is required to get the shift feat first, for no good reason I can discern.
I agree; it's a feat tax.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:44PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Feats (or anything, for that matter) should only have prerequisites if they don't function without the prerequisite.
Restrictive prerequisites are bad. I don't care how thematic you think the prerequisite is, the idea that that thematic representation is the only one that gets mechanical support goes against Next's core design.
Level prerequisites are the only acceptable form, simply because they allow for superior options to show up later in the game.
To answer the OP: both. Just because you got a fat refund doesn't mean you didn't pay the tax.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:49PM
#10
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Hmmm, yes shift does indeed have its uses, but it does seem to not have enough synergy with strike and fade to make it a real prerequisite. Since they more or less fall along the same lines, I can see how you could use one and then the other when you finally get it. But once you get Strike and Fade, the uses for Shift go down considerably.
Verdict: I would call it a feat tax on the grounds that Strike and Fade just supercedes it and leaves you feeling like you have a wasted feat.
My two copper.
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