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Switch to Forum Live View Life Without A Role - non-core classes in a 4-person party?
3 months ago  ::  Feb 19, 2013 - 9:35PM #1
ClockworkNecktie
Date Joined: Dec 5, 2012
Posts: 762
The mini-announcement from Mike Mearls on Twitter that 5e warlord won't heal got me thinking about an old issue: class roles.

They existed since the game's creation as the four "core" classes, which later got expanded through kits and sub-classes. Fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric; in MMO-speak, tank, DPS, AOE/CC, and healer; in the official 4e terminology, defender, striker, controller, and leader.

Third edition had some problems because classes outside those core four sometimes didn't fit into the party well. A 3.5e bard was a decent class, but he couldn't fill one of those main four roles, so unless your party had five or more characters he was a subpar choice.

(A proviso: this obviously wasn't a hard and fast rule. My favorite 3e characters were a monk and a barbarian. Some groups didn't even know about the "core four," others didn't care, and plenty worked around it more or less elegantly. Scrolls, wands of cure light wounds, hirelings, and other adaptations covered a miltitude of design sins.)

4e did a great job of solving this conundrum with a two-part procedure: first, they sawed off the rough edges that made certain classes absolutely necessary. Most obviously, they gave all characters out of combat (and some in combat) healing, so the party wasn't screwed if nobody wanted to play a cleric.

Second, the wedged every class into one of those four roles. So the 4e bard was a leader, meaning he could replace a cleric.

Now, 5e is rejecting that second change. Not every fighter is a defender anymore. A cleric or even rogue can have elements of a defender. Hurray for flexibility!

But where does this leave classes outside those core four? What does a monk or bard or warlord or ranger add to the party that those four core classes don't? Who do they replace?

A meta-question that should probably come first: has WOTC kept enough of the other 4e adaptations, like (soon-to-be-optional) HD healing, that those four roles aren't as rigidly required as they sometimes seemed in earlier editions?
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 19, 2013 - 9:42PM #2
Jenks
Date Joined: Apr 4, 2008
Posts: 2,493
Source on that quote that states specifically that warlords can't heal?

And if it was the one I'm thinking of, he was just off handedly mentioning some classes that can heal. That's hardly evidence that Warlords won't be one of them. 
My two copper.



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3 months ago  ::  Feb 19, 2013 - 9:46PM #3
Uchawi
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Posts: 1,749
Not healing, could mean not restoring hit points, but granting temporary hit points. So the specifics are important and Mike really needs to stay off of any type of instant messaging. I know I would if I was a developer.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 19, 2013 - 9:49PM #4
ClockworkNecktie
Date Joined: Dec 5, 2012
Posts: 762
@jenks - sorry, I'm on my phone, but google @mikemearls and check his twitter feed. Someone asked if warlords were healers too and he said they focus more on mitigation.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 19, 2013 - 9:53PM #5
Jenks
Date Joined: Apr 4, 2008
Posts: 2,493

Feb 19, 2013 -- 9:49PM, ClockworkNecktie wrote:

@jenks - sorry, I'm on my phone, but google @mikemearls and check his twitter feed. Someone asked if warlords were healers too and he said they focus more on mitigation.



Interesting. I'm actually kind of looking forward to seeing that. But it does solidify one thing, they ARE developing a Warlord class. At least that argument can be put to rest.

My two copper.



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3 months ago  ::  Feb 19, 2013 - 9:53PM #6
Mithrus
Date Joined: Jan 29, 2005
Posts: 3,226
Those roles have never been a requirement, just a more-or-less standard. That reminds me of Final Fantasy I, in which the "standard" party comprised of a fighter/knight, thief/ninja, white mage/wizard, and black mage/wizard. The running joke was how pathetic the black belt/master class was, since it got no magic at all (except from items). So I decided to run a party of 4 black belts/masters. I ended up beating the game about 5 levels lower than the "standard" party. I was truly impressed on how well they survived.

My point is every group can be functional, but the tactics will need to change accordingly. 4 defenders will have staying power, but take longer to win the encounter. No leader/healer means you need to be extra cautious or extra aggressive to mitigate overall damage inflicted to the party. Etc, etc, etc.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 19, 2013 - 9:56PM #7
Qmark
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Date Joined: May 18, 2002
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Feb 19, 2013 -- 9:53PM, Mithrus wrote:

So I decided to run a party of 4 black belts/masters. I ended up beating the game about 5 levels lower than the "standard" party. I was truly impressed on how well they survived.


A level 21 Master can take out the endboss with a single attack. It's awesome.

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3 months ago  ::  Feb 19, 2013 - 9:56PM #8
MechaPilot
Date Joined: Oct 5, 2007
Posts: 9,372

Feb 19, 2013 -- 9:49PM, ClockworkNecktie wrote:

@jenks - sorry, I'm on my phone, but google @mikemearls and check his twitter feed. Someone asked if warlords were healers too and he said they focus more on mitigation.




Here is the quote.  It was edited into the OP of the warlord thread.


@mikemearls: Only if you want it that way - you can include HD or such if no one wants to play a cleric/druid/bard etc.
@sleypy: Does warlord fall under etc?
@mikemearls: Warlord is looking like it will deal more in damage mitigation/prevention via defensive maneuvers.


 

Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad Show

Mar 4, 2012 -- 5:04PM, MechaPilot wrote:

Mar 4, 2012 -- 3:46PM, Warrant wrote:

so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.


Really?  So it goes something like this?

Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well."  Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh.  Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."


taking an argument too far Show

Apr 16, 2012 -- 9:27PM, Frostball wrote:

So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion?  Here's a scenario.  The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land.  They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges.  Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.

Part 1:  I didn't describe any of the hits.  What does he see?

Part 2:  Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up.  What does he see?



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3 months ago  ::  Feb 19, 2013 - 9:59PM #9
Qmark
  • vitriol and virtue
Date Joined: May 18, 2002
Posts: 16,509
And then we're bloating up the game because some very loud players out there have a huge mental disconnect between "take five less damage" and "gain five hitpoints" for some reason.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 19, 2013 - 10:06PM #10
Mithrus
Date Joined: Jan 29, 2005
Posts: 3,226

Feb 19, 2013 -- 9:59PM, Qmark wrote:

And then we're bloating up the game because some very loud players out there have a huge mental disconnect between "take five less damage" and "gain five hitpoints" for some reason.


Mechanical diversity, the spice of life, and ruiner of games.

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