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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:12PM
#111
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Considering that a 4e level 1 PC will be slaughtered by a typical Orc while a pre 4e PC can easily take on 4 at once
Not at all, a 3rd Ed Orc could deal 2d4 + Str mod, easily enough to take out a 1st level character.
In 1st Ed, characters could get killed by having a gnome throw a carrot at them...
Yes, but a level 1 PC with 17 AC who did 2d6+6 damage and had cleave could take on 4 Orcs with a pretty good chance of winning. A level 1 wizard could put 4 orcs to sleep fairly easily as well.
So we have pre 4e PCS can take out 4 orcs with a decent chance of success. In 4e, a single PC would be killed almost 100% of the time by a single Orc... Who seems more powerful?
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:13PM
#112
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2010
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And again, this is not anout game difficulty!This is about how your character feels in the world and the story. How difficult the game is is up to the dm and how the players choose to face the challange. Powerfull characters can just as easily be killed in the first combat...
1st level characters, in core default, should feel like heroes. Heroic Fantasy should be the first thing that people are introduced to in D&D - rescuing the dragon from the evil princess, saving the townfolk from the evil lich, whatever the story is.
Default D&D should not be about your character learning how to swing a sword. In fact, if your character feels like he's just learning how to swing a sword, why does he have the capability of doing heroic things to begin with, outside of blind luck?
Isn`t heroic fantasy very often about becoming a hero? Don`t you have to be afraid to be brave? Isn`t the game about telling the story of your character? Can`t taking the first steps into heroism with your character help you connect with your character and to experience to story in its fullest?
Heroes are people who takes the risks that other people woun`t, they are brave and take brave coices, even if they might be afraid an no better than other people. You get better, stronger, more powerful over time, but if you start out competent that goal is not as fun or exighting.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:18PM
#113
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2010
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It is much easier to identify with a character that starts out as a commoner than to identify with someone who is cut above everyone else! That is what most hero/adventure stories are, the common guy who became a hero.
Actually this is basically 100% wrong. Most protagonists, even the farmboy protagonists, are a cut above the normal person.
Luke Skywalker, Conan, Harry Potter, Harry Dresden, Lancelot, Arthur, and pretty much every fantasy protagonist ever is shown to have great potential/talent even if they lack formal training. Most are shown to be capable of deafeating veteran opponents who possess far more experience.
I cannot actually think of a story where the protagonist was a simple "farm boy" who wasn't shown to be superior in either physical prowess or cunning from the very start of the story.
It`s not wrong at all. I have a bachelor degree in animation and have studied Story and Character Development. Most hero/adventure stories, from ancient greek ones, to european and asian folk tales, and even Hollywood, is about normal or poor people, even unwilling people who rise to face the challange or experience events that makes the heroes or special in some way, they come out winning despite their simple or hindering beginning.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:21PM
#114
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2006
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if you start out competent that goal is not as fun or exighting.
If there is something people love to be in an RPG, it's incompetent.
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:23PM
#115
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It is much easier to identify with a character that starts out as a commoner than to identify with someone who is cut above everyone else! That is what most hero/adventure stories are, the common guy who became a hero.
Actually this is basically 100% wrong. Most protagonists, even the farmboy protagonists, are a cut above the normal person.
Luke Skywalker, Conan, Harry Potter, Harry Dresden, Lancelot, Arthur, and pretty much every fantasy protagonist ever is shown to have great potential/talent even if they lack formal training. Most are shown to be capable of deafeating veteran opponents who possess far more experience.
I cannot actually think of a story where the protagonist was a simple "farm boy" who wasn't shown to be superior in either physical prowess or cunning from the very start of the story.
It`s not wrong at all. I have a bachelor degree in animation and have studied Story and Character Development. Most hero/adventure stories, from ancient greek ones, to european and asian folk tales, and even Hollywood, is about normal or poor people, even unwilling people who rise to face the challange or experience events that makes the heroes or special in some way, they come out winning despite their simple or hindering beginning.
I'm not sayign they don't have simple, or humble beginnings. I am saying they are shown to be superior.
Look at both Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter. Both had very mundane beginnings (farmboy and schoolkid living under the stairs). Both are also shown to possess extraordinary power far beyond that of their peers. If you have an example of a protagonist who doesn't possess some extraordinary capability, then by all means let me know. I just have never encountered such a story.*
*discounting LotR, because that was about the group more than the individual. Except for the hobbits, the individuals in the fellowship were extraordinary heroes.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:24PM
#116
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2010
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if you start out competent that goal is not as fun or exighting.
If there is something people love to be in an RPG, it's incompetent.
If you just apply yourself, I think you`ll be able to figure out what I meant... 
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:42PM
#117
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2010
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It is much easier to identify with a character that starts out as a commoner than to identify with someone who is cut above everyone else! That is what most hero/adventure stories are, the common guy who became a hero.
Actually this is basically 100% wrong. Most protagonists, even the farmboy protagonists, are a cut above the normal person.
Luke Skywalker, Conan, Harry Potter, Harry Dresden, Lancelot, Arthur, and pretty much every fantasy protagonist ever is shown to have great potential/talent even if they lack formal training. Most are shown to be capable of deafeating veteran opponents who possess far more experience.
I cannot actually think of a story where the protagonist was a simple "farm boy" who wasn't shown to be superior in either physical prowess or cunning from the very start of the story.
It`s not wrong at all. I have a bachelor degree in animation and have studied Story and Character Development. Most hero/adventure stories, from ancient greek ones, to european and asian folk tales, and even Hollywood, is about normal or poor people, even unwilling people who rise to face the challange or experience events that makes the heroes or special in some way, they come out winning despite their simple or hindering beginning.
I'm not sayign they don't have simple, or humble beginnings. I am saying they are shown to be superior.
Look at both Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter. Both had very mundane beginnings (farmboy and schoolkid living under the stairs). Both are also shown to possess extraordinary power far beyond that of their peers. If you have an example of a protagonist who doesn't possess some extraordinary capability, then by all means let me know. I just have never encountered such a story.*
*discounting LotR, because that was about the group more than the individual. Except for the hobbits, the individuals in the fellowship were extraordinary heroes.
I see Harry potter as an ordinary boy, he is not much, if any, better than his fellow students at most magic related things. The big difference is the choices he makes and how he choose to face his challanges.
How is Luke any
Same with Bilbo and Frodo, they are very ordinary.
Many folk tale heroes are just common people who are clever in the right situation!
The childeren in Narnia are absolutely ordinary people who makes mistakes and learns from them.
In Avatar, the hero is a guy in a wheel chair who is exighted about having new legs through his avatar.
Kung-Fu Panda, nothing special to begin with, actually more on the hopeless side of common..
Many, many more....
Without no character development, there is no story! Without no character development, no hero! How is it fun to start out strong? I get it in a video-game that is more about the smooth gameplay or in a game that is all about tactics or whatever, but in a tabletop rpg?...
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:43PM
#118
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2006
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If you just apply yourself, I think you`ll be able to figure out what I meant...
No really. I think new players should jump into the game and play heroes going out and doing heroic things, heroically. They should feel challenged by a group of goblins, but not feel as though they should run away screaming.
This is the core baseline that I feel will attract the most players.
You seem to think that an ordinary person with no real skill or talent being asked to go accomplish heroic deeds (and then being quite capable, mechanically, of doing so in the game rules) will attract more players (aside from the disagreement between those two - the opposite of what mechanically supporting roleplaying should be doing).
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:48PM
#119
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Luke Skywalker, Conan, Harry Potter, Harry Dresden, Lancelot, Arthur, and pretty much every fantasy protagonist ever is shown to have great potential/talent even if they lack formal training. Most are shown to be capable of deafeating veteran opponents who possess far more experience.
The heros saga always starts with an awesome birth... Davy Crocket killed him a bar when he was only three.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:58PM
#120
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2007
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It is much easier to identify with a character that starts out as a commoner than to identify with someone who is cut above everyone else! That is what most hero/adventure stories are, the common guy who became a hero.
Actually this is basically 100% wrong. Most protagonists, even the farmboy protagonists, are a cut above the normal person.
Luke Skywalker, Conan, Harry Potter, Harry Dresden, Lancelot, Arthur, and pretty much every fantasy protagonist ever is shown to have great potential/talent even if they lack formal training. Most are shown to be capable of deafeating veteran opponents who possess far more experience.
I cannot actually think of a story where the protagonist was a simple "farm boy" who wasn't shown to be superior in either physical prowess or cunning from the very start of the story.
It`s not wrong at all. I have a bachelor degree in animation and have studied Story and Character Development. Most hero/adventure stories, from ancient greek ones, to european and asian folk tales, and even Hollywood, is about normal or poor people, even unwilling people who rise to face the challange or experience events that makes the heroes or special in some way, they come out winning despite their simple or hindering beginning.
In alot of stoies people might start out as commoners, but very rarely are they common commoners.
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