|
4 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 6:23PM
#391
|
|
|
Do you bar players from picking the Create Wand feat? Or, I suppose, the players maybe just didn't get the connection between how effective it is vs. the experience point cost. Now, I can understand not handing out the wands as treasure, but if you do discourage players from taking those feats, you start getting into house rule territory (even if only in a minor way).
No, no bar on feats, the groups I've generally played simply don't typically take those feats. I guess I never thought about why.
People refer to the Cleric as a short hand for a class that has plentiful access to healing magic, generally starting at level 1. So when people say "a Cleric is needed" or something along those lines, what they really mean is that "a healer is needed". Incidentally, a Rogue is not needed to open a lock silently, since anyone that has access to the Open Locks class skill will do in 3.5e.
It all depends on how things are set up. The game can be structured based on the assumption of mid-game healing or on between combat healing and if it is structured in that way, and the Cleric is the only source of such healing, then it is "required" in the sense that the game assumes one is present. If the game doesn't assume any capabilities of in-combat healing or between combat healing, then it is not "required," but the game is still much easier, or at least might remove the doubt the players might feel about the chances of survival, when it is present
No disagreement. My original post on the topic was in reponse to the OP, which was expressly discussing the idea of a cleric being necessary for a successful party. This is the main point I question. Whether 'healing' of some sort is necessary short of natural healing is a different debate, and I think largely should depend on the campaign.
All I have to go on are my own experiences, and my experience is that healing makes a big difference in the survivability of the characters, but is not a must-have as far as the productivity or lethality of the characters. Campaigns with less healing tend to have higher mortality, sure, that's a given, but that's a tendency. I've had clever groups stay alive through guile and creativity rather than chugging healing potions and having a designated combat medic.
I'm certainly not saying having a cleric should make no difference, I am just concerned at this idea that the game should be designed around assuming a certain class distribution.
Or the alternate might be to have a Cleric, use some spells, and then press on without retreating. Given the desires of the characters to press forward, it makes sense that the players might want to have a Cleric around to facilitate that.
I agree, the characters indeed are best served by having a well rounded group. I just don't want to see the rules developed in such a way that it's a necessity.
That said, if they are, I'll make adjustments. I've never used the published XP systems anyways, so "balanced encounters" are determined by me eyeballing it. Sometimes they're too hard, sometimes they're too easy. I find them all more interesting that way anyways.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 21, 2013 - 7:17AM
#392
|
|
|
On natural healing:
Each “long rest” is approximately 8 hours. Typically, this comprises an ideal of 7-hours of sleep plus 1-hour of preparation and cleanup. But a long rest doesnt need to involve sleep.
When recouperating from a serious wound, received when reaching 0 hit points, the hero can make a Heal check after each long rest to refresh a percentage of the total hit points. The hero can attempt three 8-hour long rests per 24-hour day. This is the benefit of bed rest and remaining in bed.
The hero might delay full recovery because of urgent circumstances, but would suffer an impairment condition, possibly fatigue, until healing fully.
Now, if the hero doesnt reach 0 hit points, then by definition the wounds arent serious. The wounds are light and superficial, so the hero can attempt a Heal check after each 10-minute short rest to refresh the percentage of hit points. If bloodied, the wounds are moderate, checking after each 1-hour medium rest.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 21, 2013 - 7:37AM
#393
|
|
|
Natural healing typically uses Constitution for the Heal check.
However, medical therapy might refer to any mental ability:
• Wisdom for insightful medical attention
• Intelligence for advanced medical technology, including sophisticated folkmedicine
• Charisma for emotional wellbeing, confidence, placebo effect, and so on
When applying some method of therapy, it seems best to use both the Constitution check of the patient, and any one mental ability check of the therapist (who might also be the patient), and see whichever rolls higher.
The Constitution check to Heal bodily is moreorless always possible. However, the mental check to Heal is situational.
These mental ability checks cant “cause” hit points to refresh. Rather the story does. For example, if someone has access to a medicine cabinet, and uses some of the exotic substances, it may or may not work, so in this case, an Intelligence check seems appropriate to determine if it successfully refreshes a percentage of hit points.
Basically, everything is an improvisation. But some actions are more typical than others, so a corresponding ability check is also more typical.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 21, 2013 - 7:41AM
#394
|
Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
|
Natural healing typically uses Constitution for the Heal check.
However, medical therapy might refer to any mental ability:
• Wisdom for insightful medical attention
• Intelligence for advanced medical technology, including sophisticated folkmedicine
• Charisma for emotional wellbeing, confidence, placebo effect, and so on
When applying some method of therapy, it seems best to use both the Constitution check of the patient, and any one mental ability check of the therapist (who might also be the patient), and see whichever rolls higher.
These ability checks cant “cause” hit points to refresh. Rather the story does. For example, if someone has access to a medicine cabinet, and uses some of the exotic substances, it may or may not work, so in this case, an Intelligence check seems appropriate to determine if it successfully refreshes a percentage of hit points.
Basically, everything is an improvisation. But some actions are more typical than others, so a corresponding ability check is also more typical.
Nice ideas Haldrik might I suggest you make a Blog post about it?
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 21, 2013 - 7:51AM
#395
|
|
|
I appreciate it. I like blogging less because I value the open discussion and the exchange of ideas. The open forum seems the best place to discover and integrate a diversity of opinions, hopefully to optimize a solution that can take everyones concerns into account.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 23, 2013 - 12:37AM
#396
|
Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
|
Myth #1 A party can't survive without a cleric unless there is a hideously silly mechanic such as healing surges available
The truth is that Healing is not nearly as hard to come by as it first seems in a resourceful game system such as D&D 3.5 and previous editions. The way we used to handle the lack of a cleric was simply to make potions available after a battle. In 3.5 there are a ton of ways of getting healing for any character class. The fact that it takes 1 maybe 2 levels to be able to buy cost effective healing solutions wasn't much of a problem because at the first 3 levels combat would be relatively easy for well built characters and decently skilled DMs.
Myth #2 Every healing mechanic has to be videogamey to allow a serious threat to players on a regular basis
By videogamey i mean this awful notion that "kids these days are so used to videogames they wont mind when verossimilitude is defenestrated", it is actually rather awkward that there are so many healing wands, potions, and what not readily available to characters from the very beginning, the answer is not to make it so that healing between battles becomes unnecessary, the tension of having characters hurt and bleeding completely dissapear from the game if all they gotta do to remove that spear from their gut is "catch their breath".
Myth #3 Healing must always be magical or completely unrealistic (and screw it, whatever the problem just throw "magic" at it)
The lower levels could very much use a little less magic, and for that all it takes is to make less magical options available. Why not bring back herbalism and put it on steroids so that making balms and other banadage application solutions viable and useful? There are other games out there that deal with this sort of thing (check out MERP or Rolemaster).
Myth #4 There is actually a problem with requiring a party to have a healer in order to be viable
It is awesome to play a role that the party needs to be played, its especially awesome when it means you get to play a character as strong as a cleric or a druid, it may look like someone is forced to play a role, but that is the truth for every role, front line fighter, wizard or rogue trapmonkey they are all roles that need to be filled, just because at first glance it seems like being a cleric requires to be a support character who will never bask in the spotlight it is always a meaningless concern because clerics will always have a place on the spotlight As a support character And doing all the other stuff they can do so well, in battle or out of it.
Plus, as addressed in point #1 there are plenty of ways to avoid the utter necessity of a cleric, even if it requires a little more down time, planning and Roleplaying in the first level or so. This is actually important to make the players realize that the world is a dangerous dreary place for people who can't afford Magic to solve everyone of their problems.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 24, 2013 - 9:18AM
#397
|
|
|
Myth #1 A party can't survive without a cleric unless there is a hideously silly mechanic such as healing surges available
That healing surges are "a hideously silly mechanic" is a myth.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 24, 2013 - 10:38AM
#398
|
Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2007
|
You know when I first saw healing surges in 4th, I thought they looked like a bad idea. After playing and dming they won me over. They are the perfect balance too encounter healing powers.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 24, 2013 - 10:40AM
#399
|
|
|
Myth #4 There is actually a problem with requiring a party to have a healer in order to be viable
It is awesome to play a role that the party needs to be played, its especially awesome when it means you get to play a character as strong as a cleric or a druid, it may look like someone is forced to play a role, but that is the truth for every role, front line fighter, wizard or rogue trapmonkey they are all roles that need to be filled, just because at first glance it seems like being a cleric requires to be a support character who will never bask in the spotlight it is always a meaningless concern because clerics will always have a place on the spotlight As a support character And doing all the other stuff they can do so well, in battle or out of it.
This, in fact, IS a huge problem. Every player should be allowed to play whatever character they want. NO role should be required.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 24, 2013 - 11:14AM
#400
|
Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
|
Myth #1 A party can't survive without a cleric unless there is a hideously silly mechanic such as healing surges available
That healing surges are "a hideously silly mechanic" is a myth.
And the assertion that hp loss necessarily or even often represents a spear plunged in the gut is a silly misinterpretation.
|
|
|
