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3 months ago ::
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:24AM
#1
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The new L&L discusses changes to healing - apparently they're leanin towards stripping out HD and nonmagical healing from "core" and letting you add it back in with modules. Okay, fine. But if nonmagical healing isn't a core assumption, then an entire class centered around it seems very unlikely. (And I doubt the devs would fail to consider that if they had an awesome warlord class waiting in the wings.) Am I reading too much in here, or does it sound like the coolest new class from 4e is getting left behind? EDIT: A humble request: could we avoid a flamewar about nonmagical vs. magical healing in this thread? At this point I doubt either side is likely to be convinced, and it's near-certain that options will be provided to allow some degree of both in the final game. What's definitely still worth debating, IMHO, is how much of that nonmagic healing should be assumed by the Standard mechanics, and whether there's room for a class that's heavily reliant on something that looks to be a non-Standard module. (That is, if the game assumes that the party relies on magical healing, and a warlord can't provide magical healing, then I can't choose to play a warlord IN PLACE OF a cleric without applying at least a module or two.) RE-EDIT: An update from the man himself:
@mikemearls: Only if you want it that way - you can include HD or such if no one wants to play a cleric/druid/bard etc.
@sleypy: Does warlord fall under etc?
@mikemearls: Warlord is looking like it will deal more in damage mitigation/prevention via defensive maneuvers.
So the warlord IS in the works, but WON'T focus on healing. Hrmmm. Potential fifth-wheel problem, but I guess it's good they're not abandoning the concept!
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3 months ago ::
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:28AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2009
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Nothing could have killed what lingering enthusiasm I had for 5e faster than that article.
It seems like Mearls has essentially given up on fixing the basic problems that afflicted 1e up to 3.5e. We're going to have mandatory, healbot clerics and we're going to be told we love it.
No thanks.
And yes, it does look like the warlord is going to be one of the odd men out.
"What is the sort of thing that I do care about is a failure to seriously evaluate what does and doesn't work in favor of a sort of cargo cult posturing. And yes, it's painful to read design notes columns that are all just "So D&D 3.5 sort of had these problems. We know people have some issues with them. What a puzzler! But we think we have a solution in the form of X", where X is sort of a half-baked version of an idea that 4e executed perfectly well and which worked fine." - Lesp
"They are making it clear that when modern design and common sense come into conflict with tradition, tradition wins." - Thecasualoblivion
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3 months ago ::
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:38AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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Ok even with the heal-bleh clerics Warlords maintain their signature abilities co-ordination and action grants, and I'm tired of people ignoring those.
That said 5e would be better off if it went back to surges for a variety of reasons, and even the feeble HD system is better than no non-magic healing, so don't interpret this as support for stripping the non-magic healing.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:46AM
#4
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The new L&L discusses changes to healing - apparently they're leanin towards stripping out HD and nonmagical healing from "core" and letting you add it back in with modules. Okay, fine. But if nonmagical healing isn't a core assumption, then an entire class centered around it seems very unlikely. (And I doubt the devs would fail to consider that if they had an awesome warlord class waiting in the wings.) Am I reading too much in here, or does it sound like the coolest new class from 4e is getting left behind?
Couldn't the Warlord still work by granting temporary HP to represent a temporary boost in morale/adrenaline/energy?
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3 months ago ::
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:50AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
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The whole "no non-magical healing" thing is nonsensical-- if hit points are willpower, luck, and skill (as well as physical health), why should regaining hp require magic or bedrest, rather than renewed determination (perhaps from receiving a short pep-talk from a Warlord buddy)?
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3 months ago ::
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:54AM
#6
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@Viking - yeah, the warlord COULD still work in a number of ways - but I doubt the people mad about HDs will be any happier about any other format for that class.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:55AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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It's also well worth noting that the core of the warlord isn't healing, magical or otherwise, it's buffing and enabling. I couldn't care less if they dropped the healing, as long as they keep some equivalent of giving your most damaging ally a massive buff, then allowing him to hit the target as your action.
THAT's the core of the Warlord, THAT's the innovation that it really brought to the table, and THAT's the thing that's most loved about it. Lose that, and you've lost the warlord. Lose its healing, and you really haven't.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 18, 2013 - 1:00AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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It's also well worth noting that the core of the warlord isn't healing, magical or otherwise, it's buffing and enabling.
I agree with that. I also think alot of the warlord's healing abilties would be alot less controversial if they gave temporary hit points, or were described as herbalism or medicine instead of cheerleader healing.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 18, 2013 - 1:01AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
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It's also well worth noting that the core of the warlord isn't healing, magical or otherwise, it's buffing and enabling. I couldn't care less if they dropped the healing, as long as they keep some equivalent of giving your most damaging ally a massive buff, then allowing him to hit the target as your action.
THAT's the core of the Warlord, THAT's the innovation that it really brought to the table, and THAT's the thing that's most loved about it. Lose that, and you've lost the warlord. Lose its healing, and you really haven't.
I have my doubts that the developers will include non-magical buffs, from improved morale/good advice, when they won't seemingly allow regaining hp from improved morale/ a stirring speech-- but we will see.
I have also been wondering about a Warlord's action grants-- using the Warlord's action so another player can use their reaction to attack? The Warlord using their own reaction to grant a reaction attack? I don't see a lot of free actions being handed out in Next.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 18, 2013 - 1:15AM
#10
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I mostly just hope that this situation is super last-ditch and they don't think that "most groups have rolled with that in the past without any real issues" is a legitimate general design principle. I've made all sorts of less-than-optimal situations work, including "it's pretty important for the party to include someone with this relatively narrow character type, or else bend things around not having that", but that's the kind of thing I'd hope that is seen as a "deal with", not a "design toward".
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer.
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'"
- Gary Gygax
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