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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:53AM
#91
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Date Joined:
Feb 19, 2009
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That's a fine suggestion Carl, assuming concepts like "Square", "Prone", and "Half Cover" are in the Basic version of the game.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:57AM
#92
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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That's a fine suggestion Carl, assuming concepts like "Square", "Prone", and "Half Cover" are in the Basic version of the game.
Ok - "you can push them back 5' " - there will have to be at least some concept of movement and position in the game.
Prone is another basic concept - it will be in the game.
Cover is a less clear issue. But I suspect that cover will be part of the core rules as well. If not, they can probably find some other perk to use.
Carl
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 12:21PM
#93
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Thinking more about the new Fighter paradigm:
- Multiple targets: this is kind of confusing. Volley seems to be the kind of effect they want maneuvers to have (i.e, it's an action you can take at any time instead of removing a situational penalty, it's big and splashy as opposed to relatively small-bore), but it does seem to work oddly with the way that they want WDD to be fungible. If I had to guess, the way Volley and Whirlwind Attack will work is that you'll get an AOE attack that counts as only one attack (you can target X amount of enemies without spending WDD), so that what you essentially get is a free WDD per target. But if it works anything like the current Volley, there's the modifier of grouping that you have to take into consideration that means that Volley won't be the automatic default maneuver to use (since there will be times in which you don't have multiple targets within 10 feet of each other).
- Damage maneuvers: I think damage maneuvers will be in there, since they really fill the criteria of "bigger, more effective" stunts. However, I think the way to make sure they don't become default is to have the extra damage come from particular circumstances (i.e, Whirlwind Attack/Volley only work when you have a cluster of enemies), or having tradeoffs on the extra damage. So for example, let's say the Duellist Fighting Style gets a Lunge maneuver that gives you an additional 5 foot range as a standard effect, but where if you spend dice, you can maximize your damage on this attack at the cost of granting advantage to the target you've just attacked. This would increase damage, but it's not a gimme because you're increasing the chance that you're going to get hurt next round, and doing it every turn would mean you'd be taking too much damage.
- Generic Maneuvers: one way that the Fighter could get a nice class feature while still giving non-Fighters the option of picking up some combat maneuvers like Bull Rush or Trip is to say that the Fighter gets those maneuvers for free. That way, non-Fighters can still have access to them, but the Fighter doesn't have to take a feat tax to fully make use of the manuever system.
Anyone want to extrapolate from the part about Precise Shot not being a maneuver, while an AOE bow attack would be? I get that the AOE attack is cooler, but is that the big difference? Would something like Protect or Shove Away still be a maneuver? And can you dump multiple expertise points to use more than one mneuver in a round?
As I said above, I think the difference is active vs. passive effects, always can use vs. situational, and big and splashy vs. relatively situational. I think Protect would still work as a maneuver, but I'd remove it from the Reaction mechanic, because right now the Reaction mechanic is really overloaded (Protect, Parry, Shield Bash, Hold the Line, Attacks of Opportunity, all use it and you only have 1). Shove Away would work as a maneuver if you pumped it up to the level of Hurricane Strike - 5 feet of movement isn't up to the standard of a maneuver, but 15 feet and the chance to spend dice to push that to 60 feet plus prone is.
As for the poll, I thought the manifest problems with the maneuvers and the dead levels suggested that the Fighter shouldn't be finished, but I was worried it was.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 1:07PM
#94
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This makes me a little afraid for Rangers, Paladins, and other classes that need access to powers that are additive to an attack.
How could this possibly make you feel this way? He's just described how all weapon using classes will work: that they get baseline weapon combat performance, and then have powers that are additive to an attack.
He has laid out exactly what you say you want to see, and you're afraid? That is sky-is-falling, sir.
He described how 3 classes work. There was neither statement nor implication regarding any other classes. In fact, previous statements by the designers have suggested other Martial classes will not be getting maneuvers.
If Mearls described how ALL weapon using classes will work, that at least would provide a baseline comparison that could then be worked with.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 1:09PM
#95
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Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2013
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The only problem I have with the way Mearl has explained the new fighter is this idea of having to spend an action to refresh your die pool to me seems like a worse damage versus utility tradeoff then the current MDD system. Now if we had say for example a partial refill each turn, with an action spent to resfresh to full I think this system could work out great. This way you can spend manouvers constantly at a low rate, or save up for biggger ones over rounds, and if you really need to you can quickly resfresh the full list with an action.
Another issue I have is how will parry work now? Will we be severly limiting it, or will it become more of a seperate thing. While I like the defence versus offense trade-off I feel it goes counter to the fighter being a very basic class. That said, parry could remain very much the same as it is now by allowing you to spend it as your reaction and use 1 die for every X levels. This could also allow parry to be balanced seperately from expertise.
Finally as for the idea of how do we implement the basic I attack fighter? Well we simply need to utilize some good manouver choice. Glancing blow is probably the prime choice for this in a depleting pool as it allows you to say I hit it, then when you miss say I spend X dice on glancing blow. Then add in more situational buffs such as opportunist, lunge, and protect. All of these choices are decisions that are very easy to make and can boil down to a simple, I attack, and when this or that happens I do X.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 1:13PM
#96
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Volley doesn't do anything but let you attack multiple people with a bow. In past articles Mike has talked about your MDD being formatted in such a way so that you can split their damage between multiple foes or stacked onto a single foe (making them represent the multiple attacks of editions past). It sounds to me like volley and whirlwind are going to be rolled into the basic mechanics of the MDD function.
I don't read that the same way you do. MDD may allow you to split their rolls between multiple targets, but it still doesn't give you the ability to attack multiple targets. That latter ability is pretty crucial for a Ranger in my view.
This is also just one example. Think of all the other martial or martial hybrid classes, including those yet to come. To keep with the archery theme, what if we see a Seeker or a Soulbow? I remember when Rogues were great archers. I'd like to see that option return. I don't see it in DDN now, and this L&L doesn't give me a lot of hope that I'll see that in the future.
I am confused. How is splitting rolls between targets not attacking multiple targets?
Splitting rolls between targets only happens after you've hit multiple targets. MDD won't grant the ability to hit multiple targets, only the ability to increase damage done to all of them via splitting the dice.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 1:22PM
#97
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The only problem I have with the way Mearl has explained the new fighter is this idea of having to spend an action to refresh your die pool to me seems like a worse damage versus utility tradeoff then the current MDD system. Now if we had say for example a partial refill each turn, with an action spent to resfresh to full I think this system could work out great.
This is something that we should look out for, but spending an action to regain the dice could work out fine if the maneuvers are good enough for it or maybe your idea is better if the maneuvers are only meh and they don't want to improve the usefulness of the maneuvers for whatever reason, but this is definitately something we can't answer until we see the actual implementation.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 1:26PM
#98
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Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2013
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The only problem I have with the way Mearl has explained the new fighter is this idea of having to spend an action to refresh your die pool to me seems like a worse damage versus utility tradeoff then the current MDD system. Now if we had say for example a partial refill each turn, with an action spent to resfresh to full I think this system could work out great.
This is something that we should look out for, but spending an action to regain the dice could work out fine if the maneuvers are good enough for it or maybe your idea is better if the maneuvers are only meh and they don't want to improve the usefulness of the maneuvers for whatever reason, but this is definitately something we can't answer until we see the actual implementation.
I guess I'm mostly saying concerned from my ideal of how the fighter should work. I see him as constantly doing cool stuff that the devs seem to want to encapsulate in manouvers. The idea of having to sacrafice an action to continue doing cool stuff seems very un-fighter to me, which is why I'd prefer a constant resfresh.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 1:38PM
#99
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2001
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My opinin on Mearls is going up. I don't always agree with everyhting he says or implies but at least you are getting a heads up I suppose.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*
*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 1:52PM
#100
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I don't think it sounds like that at all greatfrito. Based on everything they have been saying, it sounds like something new. It sounds like they will have base combat abilities. Those abilities will be what MDD and MDB look like in the current packet, but with MDD and MDB being turned into WDD (as we have been hearing via various mediums). It sounds like fighters will get something new. Specifically, a pool of dice called expertise. Dice can be spent on using maneuvers. Unlike what we have seen up to now, it doesn’t look like dice recharge automatically. Rather, it looks like you recharge your dice by spending an action to catch your breath... all in all, it sounds very intresting!
My guess is that you'll still have to expend the dice, but you'll still get to roll them for damage...
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