Community

Feb 15, 2013 -- 3:32PM, captpike wrote:

Feb 14, 2013 -- 10:59PM, knastrarn wrote:

Well you can afford the cheaper heavy armors like chain mail and a shield, which will most likely net you more AC than your avarage light armor player.

I don't agree with the "they can wear it so it's a class requirement" arguement. A mage can use a wide array of high level spell scrolls or magic wands at level 1. Don't think that entitles them to start the game off with one.

HOWEVER! I do see your point and I can see it being fixed by creating your own starter class equipment packages & background packages together with your DM, which the playtest encourages! Rather than just going with the 'buy system'.

Addition: Also consider the new system seems more designed around lower numbers than before, so lower AC & Ab scores all around. ('cept for those nasty level 1 critters with their +5 AB!)

how would you feel about wizard's spellbooks costing 5kg if you wanted to cast more then cantrips? its the same thing as asking plate user's to pay 5kg for their armor. we are talking about useing something that is a basic part of how they function, not something they might or might not have, that they are not balanced around (scrolls and wands)

a rogue may not have as high AC as a palidan but he gained other things instead.

idealty you would not pay for weapons, armor, or anything needed to use your class features you would gain them when you start your character then have gold left over for other things.

if you cant aford plate you should not be adverting as a palidan, just like a daggerless rogue should not.

I can kind of see your point, especially if your experience is with 4e.  (Not saying there's anything wrong with liking 4e.  The are many things I like about it, even though I would rather play other editions.)  4e was the first edition where a starting character could afford the heaviest mundane armor, but the system was also balanced for it.  In earlier editions, plate was something a character had to work for.  In DDN, the developers appear to be returning to that same idea, and one of the goals of bounded accuracy seems to be making things like plate armor special, without any magic bonus.

If you have access, go back and look at the 1e Cavalier (Unearthed Arcana, iirc), and I think the 1e Paladin.  Those classes have codified into their rules that they will wear the best type of armor they can afford, even if a suit of magical armor of a lesser type gives a better AC.  I think that was a concept that spoke to many players, and it seems the DDN developers liked it to some degree as well.

Part of it is how you look at the 1st level paladin.  IMO, he's not the knight in shining armor who single-handedly slays dragons, or at least with the help of only his trusted charger (i.e., warhorse).  That would be a goal he's working for.  (Again, look at the Cavalier, and how it gets better with "knightly" weapons when gaining levels, for an idea of how I'm thinking.)  All 1st level characters are supposed to be trained and competent in their carreers, but they are at the beginning of said carreers.  At first level, the paladin won't have the best weapons, or armor, or mount; those are all things that he should be striving to acquire on his road to becoming the ideal paladin.

The developers could go back and nerf the armor wearing classes, give them up to only medium armors at first level, and then give them access to heavy armors at higher levels, which would mean that you would have no arguement about not being able to afford the best you can use at 1st level.  However, that would also mean that they would control when your paladin can use the "best" armors in the game, not you or the DM.  And, the way it is, there's no reason the DM can't hand-wave your character somehow having plate to start, if that fits with his or her concept of the paladin and/or the world, and if it won't unbalance your campaign.  After all, the knight background in the playtest gets a light warhorse, which should be pretty costly.  The only issue would be how it affects bounded accuracy starting out.

Feb 15, 2013 -- 10:06PM, Ahrimon wrote:

I remember when 4e first came out and I saw that Paladins started with plate armor.  At first I was thinking WTF.  Then I started looking into the armor and saw that it was all balanced. 

I felt like 4e characters start thier careers as fledgling heroes where as prior editions you started as more gifted average joe that hasn't come into thier own yet.  Around third or fourth level is when you became the fledgling hero.  I've found that I like the 4e way of doing things much better.  It let's me have the hero I want.

 But 4e didnt allow others to make the newly started adventurer they wanted. I dont really personally get why an established hero in full plate and full bag of Paladin powers goes out to kill goblins for meager rewards. That kind of hero is more suited in my mind as a level 5 character, and the system have to cater to both of us SO:

Leave the classes and equipment balance as it is to suit the system balance, and use Backgrounds! A wider array of "higher tier" backgrounds to create anything from Heroes to the peasant who have just picked up a sword. Then the "I want to be Legolas at level 1 and Ares at level 20" can chose from the heroic list, and the "I want to be Corporal Nobby Nobbs at level 1 and Legolas at level 20" can pick from the lowly list.

And I agree that a Paladin who picks something from the Heroic list most definitely should start with a Full Plate...but please don't impose your ideas of "a paladin SHOULD always and without fail start with full plate as it is a design feature from 4e!" on the players who not share the 4e design philosophy. Because a starting player in earlier editions did not have enough money for it either...even if their class had access to it. This edition is about making everyone have the options of playing how they want and backgrounds does this for you. There is guidelines in the backgrounds document on how you can make your own.

Feb 16, 2013 -- 3:59AM, Keendk wrote:

Feb 15, 2013 -- 10:06PM, Ahrimon wrote:

I remember when 4e first came out and I saw that Paladins started with plate armor.  At first I was thinking WTF.  Then I started looking into the armor and saw that it was all balanced. 

I felt like 4e characters start thier careers as fledgling heroes where as prior editions you started as more gifted average joe that hasn't come into thier own yet.  Around third or fourth level is when you became the fledgling hero.  I've found that I like the 4e way of doing things much better.  It let's me have the hero I want.

 But 4e didnt allow others to make the newly started adventurer they wanted. I dont really personally get why an established hero in full plate and full bag of Paladin powers goes out to kill goblins for meager rewards. That kind of hero is more suited in my mind as a level 5 character, and the system have to cater to both of us SO:

Leave the classes and equipment balance as it is to suit the system balance, and use Backgrounds! A wider array of "higher tier" backgrounds to create anything from Heroes to the peasant who have just picked up a sword. Then the "I want to be Legolas at level 1 and Ares at level 20" can chose from the heroic list, and the "I want to be Corporal Nobby Nobbs at level 1 and Legolas at level 20" can pick from the lowly list.

And I agree that a Paladin who picks something from the Heroic list most definitely should start with a Full Plate...but please don't impose your ideas of "a paladin SHOULD always and without fail start with full plate as it is a design feature from 4e!" on the players who not share the 4e design philosophy. Because a starting player in earlier editions did not have enough money for it either...even if their class had access to it. This edition is about making everyone have the options of playing how they want and backgrounds does this for you. There is guidelines in the backgrounds document on how you can make your own.

Actually, having different tiers of backgrounds sounds like a very good idea, and even some variation horizontally, like backgrounds which give more skills but less gear or a less useful trait.