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4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 12:59AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Mar 30, 2007
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Mike Mearls recently stated that the Cleric and Wizard are almost done. I agree that they're looking good, but after play-testing both classes, I disagree that their 'Spell Slots' are anywhere close to ready. Keep in mind, 'Spell Slots' are not to be confused with 'Spells Prepared' -- the number of spells Clerics and Wizards can ready for casting each day. Spell Slots are the number of Spells Prepared a Cleric or Wizard can cast each day. At present, I find both classes to be woefully destitute in spell slots, especially the wizard, for whom spellcasting is really their only trick.
Looking at the latest Cleric -- from level 11 to level 16 -- they only gain 1 new spell slot every two levels. After that -- from level 17 to 20 -- they don't gain spell slots at all. It's the exact same for the Wizard.
This might not have seemed so miserly if Clerics and Wizards still gained 'bonus spell slots' from high ability scores, but they don't. That convention ended with 3rd edition.
Right now, a D&D Next 20th level Cleric gains 15 spell slots in total. A 20th level Wizard gains 19 spell slots in total.
Those totals felt extremely frugal to me during my play-tests of both classes. Wizards became cantrip-spammers after one or two battles and clerics are reviled if they dare cast anything that doesn't have the word 'Cure' in it. Unless there are plans for daily spell slots to refresh more frequently or Cleric healing to become a decoupled power seperate from their spells, these two classes are getting short changed. With that in mind, I looked back at spell slots for 3rd edition Clerics and Wizards...
A 20th level Cleric (with domain spells) had 50 spell slots (not counting orisons). Factor in bonus spell slots from a high ability score and that number easily rose to 60 spell slots.
A 20th level Wizard (with specialist spells) had 45 spell slots (not counting cantrips). Factor in bonus spell slots from a high ability score again and that number easily rose to 55 spell slots.
To be clear, I don't think these numbers are even remotely workable for D&D 5th edition, but the current totals of 15 for Clerics and 19 for Wizards (by 20th level) aren't suitable either. The latest spell slot totals leave both classes unprepared for their roles as spellcasters, especially the wizard, who can't even fall back on melee combat like the Cleric.
I'm on board with the philosophy of scaling back 'the-bloat-of-too-many-abilities', but I'm not advocating more 'Prepared Spells' with this post. I'm advocating more spells slots to cast those Prepared Spells. Essentially, the number of spells 5th edition Clerics and Wizards prepare each day wouldn't change, but they'd be able to cast, say, 10 more of them by 20th level. That's one solution. There are several.
As such, in addition to the POLL, you will find six possible solutions (below) that address the lack of adequate spell slots for Clerics and Wizards.
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Solution One: Give them more spell slots.
Solution Two: Keep the existing spell slot progressions (or something similar to them) and let Clerics and Wizards slowly recover spell slots throughout the day with 10 minute rests. For example, a 10 minute rest would earn back one 1st level spell. A 20 minute rest would earn back two 1st level spells or one 2nd level spell, etcetera. You would still need an extended rest to 're-prepare' your spells for that day. An extended rest would also replenish all your spell slots.
Solution Three: Give Clerics and Wizards a Signature Spell for the first five spell levels they can cast. For Wizards, these could be changed after each extended rest, but would always be drawn from the school of their chosen Tradition. They would replenish quickly, possibly after a 10 minute rest. For Clerics, these Signature Spells would always be their Domain Spells.
Solution Four: Create a condition-based consequence for casting without an available spell slot. The Cleric or Wizard is restrained or stunned or rendered unconscious (possibly in that order to represent increasing physical cost) until the beginning or end of their next turn.
Solution Five: Allow Wizards a chance to 'retain' spell slots -- as they are being cast -- through force of will, possibly by making a Concentration check with an appropriate DC to represent increasing difficulty (DC 10 + spell level). Failure means the spell is cast and gone. You could limit failing at this ability to a certain number of times per day or just grant a certain number of automatic successes per day.
Solution Six: Decouple healing from spells, make it a limited resource power for Clerics, allowing them to cast other 'non-obligatory' spells while still keeping their party alive.
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Having said as much, I'd like to know what everybody else thinks about spell slots. The poll is embedded below.
Do Clerics and Wizards have enough spell slots in the current play-test?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 1:02AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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The cleric needs less.
THey both need tighter limits on their access to which spells they can prep.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 1:16AM
#3
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The cleric needs less.
THey both need tighter limits on their access to which spells they can prep.
Exactly.
The cleric needs to be drawing from only a limited number of spells.
The wizard needs to have a FAR smaller number of spells available.
And neither needs more spells per day.
The caster classes are already VASTLY more flexible and outright capable (not to mention interesting to play) than everything else in the playtest.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 2:01AM
#4
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Too daily.
Needs non-daily refreshes.
Partial refresh per-1-hour rest, means less spell slots/spell points are necessary.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 2:22AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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I think they have too few, but they're not far off. Even one extra per level per day would probably do it.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 4:56AM
#6
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Wizards need to get back the signature spells. They need more spells, but definitely don't need more choices.
I don't really see that clerics need anything at all; they arae in a good place.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th EditionReality Refracted: Social ContractsD & D: A Documentary Kickstarter ( http://kck.st/SyKNzf)  Dreaming the Impossible Dream
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Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl
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4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 5:23AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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Clerics are a hybrid class, they should never have as much spell-casting capability as a pure caster. I'd rather see the cleric become the poster child class for all martial/magical hybrids, and then have an arcane equivalent class. There needs to be a standard progression for full and partial casters, regardless of power source. A pure caster (arcane, divine, et al) should have the maximum number of prepped and slots (or equivalent casting style). If the class gets some martial features, be it armor or weapons, then they should have a slower progression in some capacity. There's 3 ways to restrict a slot-based spell system: reduce rate of higher spell slot acquisition (like 3e sorcerer), reduce the spell slots (and probably spells prepped too), or reduce the maximum spell level attainable (cap early, like 3e bards). We need a progression chart for 25/50/75/100% casters. Something like this: 25% caster
Show
| Level |
Spells per Day |
| 0 |
1st |
2nd |
3rd |
4th |
5th |
| 1st |
— |
1 |
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| 2nd |
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1 |
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| 14th |
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| 15th |
— |
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— |
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| 18th |
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| 19th |
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| 20th |
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50% caster
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| Level |
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| 0 |
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| 1st |
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3 |
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1 |
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| 11th |
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3 |
3 |
3 |
2 |
— |
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| 12th |
— |
3 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
— |
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| 13th |
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3 |
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1 |
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| 14th |
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3 |
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2 |
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| 15th |
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3 |
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| 16th |
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| 17th |
— |
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| 18th |
— |
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3 |
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| 19th |
— |
3 |
3 |
3 |
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3 |
1 |
| 20th |
— |
3 |
3 |
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3 |
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75% caster
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| Level |
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Spells per Day |
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9th |
| 1st |
* |
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| 14th |
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| 20th |
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3 |
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3 |
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1 |
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1 |
100% caster
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Spells per Day |
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3rd |
4th |
5th |
6th |
7th |
8th |
9th |
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* |
2 |
— |
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| 2nd |
* |
4 |
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4 |
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4 |
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1 |
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4 |
4 |
4 |
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4 |
1 |
1 |
— |
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4 |
4 |
4 |
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1 |
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1 |
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1 |
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4 |
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1 |
1 |
1 |
Note: updated 75% and 100% casters.
Magic Dual Color Test
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4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 5:25AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2011
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Add a slot to each level and its set to go.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 7:38AM
#9
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They need to get rid of the old spell list. They NEED to do it.
It was fine back in the 80's when no one knew any better, but these days there is no reason to have "spell levels" and 8 slightly more powerful versions of "Hold ___".
They need to get rid of spell levels 1-9 entirely and male each spell scalable from character levels 1-20. This will make their proposed multiclassing system viable.
Then they need to fold all of the redundant spells into one, so Charm Person, Charm Monster, Mass Charm Person, etc. becomes a single spell called "Charm"which gains power as the caster gains expereince. This will create stronger decision points for players, and will free up page space for extra material. It may even allow for a lower price point if the pages are omitted entirely.
Then they need to pare down the alloted spells per day to a more manageable 12-15 or so (along with at-will cantrips). If you look at the current progression, at the uppermost levels, Wizards get 29 spells 16 of which they will almost never use because they will have become obsolete...so paring the alotment down to 15 spells that are useful across ALL levels maintains parity with what casters get now. Also, this makes generating higher level PC's and NPC's quicker and easier.
Some of the more powerful spells can have prerequisites, like you have to learn Phase Shift and Summon Monster before you can learn Planar Binding, OR you can simply move these spells to the realm of rituals.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 8:06AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Nov 21, 2012
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Neither of them has anything resembling enough spell slots. Our Cleric has three first level slots and that's all he will ever have, at level 3 and at level 20. Right now if he hopes to have a few Cure Light Wounds (there are three other characters in the party), he can at best use one of those slots for something else. Since I don't think CLerics should be relegated to being the healbot, the number of spell slots avilable is terrible. For the Wizard, the extremely low number of spells per day forces overreliance on cantrips, which looks like it must continue even to higher levels. One of the appeals of playing a Wizard is learning new spells and using them.
One of the biggest problems with the game.
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