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I know this is a bit of drastic departure from the standard model but perhaps the best way to bring physical and mental stats in to unity would be to include mental HP. I imagine that it should be a relatively small number (Wisdom score + level perhaps) and psychic damage would affect that (And should do a smaller amount of damage to scale properly). So WIS = CON, CHA = STR, and INT = DEX.

That set up makes sense to me and would end up making interesting class parallels as well...

Wizard = Rogue. They're both versatile and quick in their respective ways and 4e certainly drew a parallel between Intelligence and Dexterity with AC and Reflex bonuses.

Sorceror = Barbarian. Charisma would increase spell DCs and effect output making Sorcerors magical powerhouses and helping to properly differentiate them from Wizards. Not as accurate as a Wizard but when the rage... er... magic starts flowing you better get out of the way.

Cleric = Fighter. A high wisdom means mental toughness with physical toughness being the Fighter's schtick of sorts with Parry, armor choices, etc.

There'd be room for high intelligence Clerics or high charisma Wizards just like there's room for high dex Fighters and high strength Rogues. I do think the caster classes should have some level of focus on a particular stat like the martial classes do but I'd also like to see mental stats give more bonuses to martial classes (Little things like what 4e did with Fighters and Wisdom) and physical stats having more importance to caster classes. It'd be nice to have good mechanical reasons to choose to be well rounded instead of specialized. It should be fine to play a stupid brute of a Fighter but it should also be beneficial to give up some strength to be an intelligent and cunning Fighter (Intelligence gets you more maneuvers per level perhaps and Charisma could add a bonus to certain maneuvers). They'd end up fighting differently and that'd be great. In the same vein the in your face trickster Wizard (High dex and Charisma with moderate Intelligence) should be perfectly capable along side, albeit different, than the scholarly academic Wizard.

Feb 13, 2013 -- 6:21AM, Ganymede425 wrote:

Feb 13, 2013 -- 6:15AM, knastrarn wrote:

I'm a bit surprised to find that there seems to be a lot of players that aren't considering the fact that the characters attributes are also designed to weight in on the rp. Of course charisma is gonna be a dumpstat if all you're doing is playing the game as a dungeon crawler slugfest.

That's just DM fiat in application, though.

Not sure if I agree actually, I believe it's all an agreement amoung all that participiate in the game how you're going to handle the mechanics. The DM is just the one telling the story, not the referee.

I wouldn't consider applying the stats of your character into the play a house rule, it's always been featured in the how to play your character sections. I'm sure we'll see it in the final product here as well. Also to clarify when I write RP I am considering the PC to NPC interaction, calling for checks and saves, not the players own dramatisation.


In either case and back to topic with the change in how saves work all stats now govern saving throws. So there's also that on the mental powers. It's quite late here so I might have missed some stuff, but this is basically what I see the stats functioning as currently, not taking into account that some also work as prequisits for certain feats:

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STR: Damage bonus & attack rolls. Carry Weight. Physical skill tests. Save against grapple & bind.

DEX: Finesse & ranged combat rules, initiative, Armor Class bonus on light armor types. Agility & stealth tests. Saves against dodgeable attacks, falls and traps.

CON: HP. Stamina, Concentration & Fortitude tests. Saves against diseases, pain & poison attacks.

INT: Spell-stat. Smarts, active search, memory & knowledge based tests. Saves against attacks trying to overcome intelligence.

WIS: Spell-Stat. Judgement calls, alertness & judging character tests. Saves against charm, fear, illusion and influence.

CHA: Spell-Stat (to be according to the rules, no class yet though), Calm, decieve, inspire tests.  Save against compulsion.
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In the end I find them all important, much more so than before since we no longer have skill points.

It may help to consider how often specific attributes are added to actual rolls (or otherwise impacted by rolls).

STR and DEX are used nearly every character in every combat situation. Outside of combat, CON is typically less useful, but STR and DEX still see a lot of play during skill checks and contests. Typically a character is forced to choose between them: high DEX means lighter armor and finesse weapons (rendering STR unnecessary), whereas more powerful weapons and heavier armor make DEX unncessary. Even so, DEX saves are much more frequent than most other saves.

CON has plenty of combat use (HPs, hit dice recovery, and Con saves), though out-of-combat it seems to be restricted to endurance tests. Those happen in games, but not often enough for it to rival how often most other attributes are employed. How many times has your group force-marched to exhuastion, compared to how many times the fighter had to lift something heavy?

WIS also typically modifies saving throws in combat, and high WIS helps Perception checks, which can influence surprise rounds. Clerics benefit from higher WIS in combat. Outside of combat, WIS has quite a few uses.

INT has no discernible combat advantages, except helping out wizard attacks. Outside of combat, knowledge skills are typically used as a vehicle for the DM to provide exposition. The use of these vary depend on the DM and the requirements of the story. It's certainly possible for INT to be life-or-death (maybe disarming traps?) but it sees much less use, roll-for-roll, than the other skills.

CHA sits at the bottom. There are very few CHA saves, but even if there were more, it would still lag behind because it lacks other in-combat advantages. Outside of combat, CHA can be potentially very useful, but the bonus from having a Persuade, Bluff, or Intimidate skill die severely outweighs a low CHA bonus. (No one would ever go above 12 or 14 currently).

In a social situation, I don't think I'd make any character roll more than 1 or 2 CHA checks, while in combat a character will be using STR, DEX, and CON at least 2-3 times every round. That, I think, is the crux of it. Let's have a few more fun combat uses for CON/WIS/INT/CHA while improving their out-of-combat options too.

Even if I play a dumb jock like a fighter or barbarian, I still would like to be benefit from a 12-14 WIS, INT, or CHA. While I'm at it, wizards and clerics with 18 WIS/INT/CHA should feel like those choices really made them stronger in some noticable ways.