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4 months ago ::
Feb 09, 2013 - 8:59PM
#11
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Dual and both means 2 implements.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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4 months ago ::
Feb 09, 2013 - 9:19PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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Exactly, I have an arcane implement in both hands, sure it's the same one, but it's in both hands. Nowhere does it state two individual implements, just that both hands are occupied.
From the power:
When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this power, and you must be capable of wielding both implements, to gain this benefit.
2 things. 1 in each =/= 1 in both.
Both pretty clearly states that you need 2 in your hands. To be clear it doesn't say "both hands" it says "both implements".
I know you want the power to work the other way. And you may be able to convince a DM who doesn't want to argue with you go with how you want it to work. But the fact remains that it doesn't actually work as you want it to.
Moderated by
Orc_Welfin
on Feb 10, 2013 - 02:09PM
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out hereSpoiler:
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
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4 months ago ::
Feb 09, 2013 - 10:05PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2009
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Exactly, I have an arcane implement in both hands, sure it's the same one, but it's in both hands. Nowhere does it state two individual implements, just that both hands are occupied.
From the power:
When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this power, and you must be capable of wielding both implements, to gain this benefit.
2 things. 1 in each =/= 1 in both.
Both pretty clearly states that you need 2 in your hands. To be clear it doesn't say "both hands" it says "both implements".
I know you want the power to work the other way. And you may be able toconvince a DM who doesn't want to argue with you go with how you want it to work. But the fact remains that it doesn't actually work as you want it to.
Implement is singular in the above text you provided which means one. Both implements are useable and wield capable. I know what the Feat's meant to do. This isn't about RAI. It's about whether or not an implement in both hands qualifies as off handed.
Moderated by
Orc_Welfin
on Feb 10, 2013 - 02:09PM
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4 months ago ::
Feb 09, 2013 - 10:31PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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Exactly, I have an arcane implement in both hands, sure it's the same one, but it's in both hands. Nowhere does it state two individual implements, just that both hands are occupied.
From the power:
When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this power, and you must be capable of wielding both implements, to gain this benefit.
2 things. 1 in each =/= 1 in both.
Both pretty clearly states that you need 2 in your hands. To be clear it doesn't say "both hands" it says "both implements".
I know you want the power to work the other way. And you may be able to weasel and whine your way into letting a DM who doesn't want to argue with you go with how you want it to work. But the fact remains that it doesn't actually work as you want it to.
Implement is singular in the above text you provided which means one. Both implements are useable and wield capable. I know what the Feat's meant to do. This isn't about RAI. It's about whether or not an implement in both hands qualifies as off handed. Additionally, I'd prefer that you keep any negative assumptions about me to yourself. Thank you kindly.
Um. Implement is singular? Lets try that again...
When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this power, and you must be capable of wielding both implements, to gain this benefit.
If you mean that the first useage of implement is singular, that is because that is how english works as a language. You don't ever have "a magic implements". If you would rather it to have said this:
When you use an arcane attack power, and you are weilding magic implements in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement's enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Then ok. But those are functionally identical and ignore the second part. That still doesn't help you with the distinction of "each" vs "both".
Moderated by
Orc_Welfin
on Feb 10, 2013 - 02:10PM
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out hereSpoiler:
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
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4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 2:10PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2012
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I've removed content from this thread. Trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conductPlease remember to keep your posts polite, on topic and refrain from personal attacks. You are free to disagree with one another as long as it is done in a respectful manner.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:26AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2009
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Um. Implement is singular? Lets try that again...
When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this power, and you must be capable of wielding both implements, to gain this benefit.
If you mean that the first useage of implement is singular, that is because that is how english works as a language. You don't ever have "a magic implements". If you would rather it to have said this:
When you use an arcane attack power, and you are weilding magic implements in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement's enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Then ok. But those are functionally identical and ignore the second part. That still doesn't help you with the distinction of "each" vs "both".
I disagree with your parsing here. You're treating it like it's one sentence that ties it all together, but it's not. He needs an implement in both hands, but it doesn't say anywhere that each implement needs to be in both hands. "Both" and "each" are in seperate sentences talking about seperate requirements.
If there's any issue here, it's that you don't actually have an off-hand implement, so you can't add any bonus. I don't even think Staff Fighting would work because you only get the off-hand end when using it as a weapon.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:56AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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for DIS to work you need one implement in each hand, effectively dual wielding implements. Being able to have a tome cady hold your tome for you and attack via the tome does not mean you're holding the item in your hand. You MUST hold one implement in each hand. Having a staff and holding it two handed does not work since you need a different implement in each hand. Staff fighting also would not work for the reason Scatterbrained stated.
And honestly, arguing with people you ask a question to when they answer your question is just silly. If you weren't going to listen to the answer to your question, why even bother asking ?
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 4:02PM
#18
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for DIS to work you need one implement in each hand, effectively dual wielding implements. Being able to have a tome cady hold your tome for you and attack via the tome does not mean you're holding the item in your hand. You MUST hold one implement in each hand. Having a staff and holding it two handed does not work since you need a different implement in each hand. Staff fighting also would not work for the reason Scatterbrained stated.
And honestly, arguing with people you ask a question to when they answer your question is just silly. If you weren't going to listen to the answer to your question, why even bother asking ?
Staff Fighting works, you guys need to check the double-weapon rules. Wielding a double-weapon literally says "You have a weapon in each hand."
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 5:20PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2009
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Staff fighting and DIS work just fine and it doesn't matter if you cast through the tome which i believe was initially stated earlier in the thread. Not sure how/if that is possible but if it is it would still work with SF/DIS.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 7:31PM
#20
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for DIS to work you need one implement in each hand, effectively dual wielding implements. Being able to have a tome cady hold your tome for you and attack via the tome does not mean you're holding the item in your hand. You MUST hold one implement in each hand. Having a staff and holding it two handed does not work since you need a different implement in each hand. Staff fighting also would not work for the reason Scatterbrained stated.
And honestly, arguing with people you ask a question to when they answer your question is just silly. If you weren't going to listen to the answer to your question, why even bother asking ?
Staff Fighting works, you guys need to check the double-weapon rules. Wielding a double-weapon literally says "You have a weapon in each hand."
That's why comment #1, the first response to the OP, is "you need Staff Fighting to make this work, it doesn't work without it" and the OP's response was "no it doesn't!"
OP doesn't have Staff Fighting, and is insisting that his non-double-weapon Staff, wielded in two hands, counts.
It doesn't.
If he takes Staff Fighting, it seems to work. He's insisting it works without that.
(The comment you're specifically responding to says Staff Fighting won't work, because "a weapon in each hand" is not "an implement in each hand". I think that's wrong, but it's also not what the other 90% of the thread says.)
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