If I recall correctly, immersion in elemental damage, such as acid or fire, does 20d6. Given that, in just over a minute the siege towers will be dead. That's not bad, and significantly less troublesome than physically moving these multiple large structures over a cliff.
I've never heard of this before, is there a source that you can point me to for that? That being said, your talking about completely covering a gargantuan sized object for a whole minute. If the resources to do that where at hand, it would probably be more effective to target the troops in lue of the siege towers.
Given that they're actually bothering with siege engines, I was under the impression that they had relatively little funds and no mages to speak of. It'd be much more efficient to have a single highly skilled archer shoot an Arrow of Total Anihlation at the wall than to use siege engines, not to mention the mages simply invalidating the entire army or just flying over the walls and murdering, or just removing the walls with Shape Stone or the like.
Armies and sieges don't exist with decent-leveled mages. This is especially true, as the PCs must be on a timeframe. Otherwise, they'd do a proper siege and just starve the enemy out. Really, once Flight is on the table, they really should just fly the highest-level warriors over the wall and open the gates at night, and just swarm the city from that.
I'm not sure what your point is here, or how any of that is relevant in regards to protective options for siege towers save for the mention of magic. In that regard, a decent leveled mage is pretty much a valid answer to anything and if one was on hand I hardly see why anyone would bother trying to do hit point damage to the towers (burning them) like you suggest, and as such something of a moot point.
Why not? They have experience with the surface and current contact with the city, given their abilty to come to aid the city. It seems relatively simple and obvious.
relatively simple and obvious not only to a land dwelling person but one who has spent a life time reaping the benefits of fire. If you think about it, fire probably isn't the first thought of an ocean dwelling creature in terms of causing harm. It's pretty much non existent in their natural environment so unless it was brought up by the people calling on the sahaguin it probably wouldn't be a primary tactic for them to burn things simply due to how rarely the opportunity would come up for them to do it. however thats mostly just a personal opinion on outlook and not a citation on sahaguin ecology written in stone, so anything is possible, it's just of my opinion that fire in particular is probably an oddity in the regimen of an aquatic races combat tactics.
As I recall, it isn't really a rule for elemental damage in general, just for a few kinds of hazards, like lava (which does deal 20d6 for total immersion). Acid is described in more general terms, but is only 10d6 damage (which is still a fair amount). I don't recall anything in core regarding massive fires, as opposed to simply catching on fire, but I do remember seeing something with varying degrees of fire damage in one of the other official books.
As far as initial flammability goes, it takes a bit of work to get whole wood burning even up close, and siege towers could often be given less flammable coverings to stop them being easily set alight from a distance.
If the sahuagin sneak in on a suitably dark night, they could already have the tower solidly rolling towards the cliffs before anyone notices, and unlike setting it on fire, it will be thoroughly smashed by going over the edge of even a modest cliff, instead of leaving the possibility for it to be saved.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
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Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I myself just go for the simple explination that around 100 people of any level can counter and overwhelm any spell. ANY SPELL. Simple, clean, solves the "Why aren't mages awesome?" problem as any large riot can kill a wizard or other spellcaster as their spells sputter and their divinations fail to uncover it's existence. Most large castles, towers, and walled cities gain total immunity to mortal spellcasters due to their manpower heavy construction times (antimagic rune on ever brick and stone) making traditional warfare still the most effective battle plan when magical and mundane assassination fail.
Hm. Seems an interesting houserule, if irrelevent. Still, seems quite interesting, and does solve the problem decently, if a bit heavy-handedly.
Considering he's the DM and it's his setting, he can use whatever explanation he wants to establish that Sahuagin want some siege towers pushed off the cliff.
Yes, it is his call, but I would imagine both the DM and the player would want the most logical course of action.
I've never heard of this before, is there a source that you can point me to for that? That being said, your talking about completely covering a gargantuan sized object for a whole minute. If the resources to do that where at hand, it would probably be more effective to target the troops in lue of the siege towers.
I honestly don't remember where it is. One of the downsides of memorizing large chunks of crunch is that in-depth fluff and location tends to get crowded out.
And not really. It's much more efficient to try to kill a few targets that are relatively easy to kill than a large number of targets who fight back. Once the towers are properly ablaze, they aren't getting put out with what an army is going to carry with them.
I'm not sure what your point is here, or how any of that is relevant in regards to protective options for siege towers save for the mention of magic. In that regard, a decent leveled mage is pretty much a valid answer to anything and if one was on hand I hardly see why anyone would bother trying to do hit point damage to the towers (burning them) like you suggest, and as such something of a moot point.
Which was my point. But if the have access to magic protections for their siege engines, then the entire idea of siege engines is completely pointless. Given that, it was my assumption that they didn't have any real protection.
relatively simple and obvious not only to a land dwelling person but one who has spent a life time reaping the benefits of fire. If you think about it, fire probably isn't the first thought of an ocean dwelling creature in terms of causing harm. It's pretty much non existent in their natural environment so unless it was brought up by the people calling on the sahaguin it probably wouldn't be a primary tactic for them to burn things simply due to how rarely the opportunity would come up for them to do it. however thats mostly just a personal opinion on outlook and not a citation on sahaguin ecology written in stone, so anything is possible, it's just of my opinion that fire in particular is probably an oddity in the regimen of an aquatic races combat tactics.
This would be correct, except these sahuagin are in frequent contact with surface people. Given that, they ought to have encountered fire before, and, especially if their memory functions like humans, it wouldn't be at all odd for them to burn the towers.
As far as initial flammability goes, it takes a bit of work to get whole wood burning even up close, and siege towers could often be given less flammable coverings to stop them being easily set alight from a distance.
Preparation. Cut chunks of it off and/or bring flamable liquid like oil. It'd be much faster and quiter to have them burning out of control than to move a few giant structures.
If the sahuagin sneak in on a suitably dark night, they could already have the tower solidly rolling towards the cliffs before anyone notices, and unlike setting it on fire, it will be thoroughly smashed by going over the edge of even a modest cliff, instead of leaving the possibility for it to be saved.
Not really. If you think about it, moving each tower requires nine frogdudes. These towers are also not awesomely crafted, and are very large. They will move very, very loudly. Also, no self-respecting commander would leave his siege equipment near a decently-sized cliff, so the french guys will have to move them far too far to be safe or quiet. In fact, it'd probably be more efficient to simply swarm the camp at night and kill all the soldiers.
Now, compare that to the easy of cutting open some hide and/or applying decent amounts of some flammable liquid to the hide and letting it burn. You are also assuming the siege engines are totally complete.
When you think about it, rolling them off a cliff will only be really effective if the army has no watch, nobody awake at all, and everyone highly drugged. And if that's the case, a massacre would be much more effective.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
As far as initial flammability goes, it takes a bit of work to get whole wood burning even up close, and siege towers could often be given less flammable coverings to stop them being easily set alight from a distance.
Preparation. Cut chunks of it off and/or bring flamable liquid like oil. It'd be much faster and quiter to have them burning out of control than to move a few giant structures.
If the sahuagin sneak in on a suitably dark night, they could already have the tower solidly rolling towards the cliffs before anyone notices, and unlike setting it on fire, it will be thoroughly smashed by going over the edge of even a modest cliff, instead of leaving the possibility for it to be saved.
Not really. If you think about it, moving each tower requires nine frogdudes. These towers are also not awesomely crafted, and are very large. They will move very, very loudly. Also, no self-respecting commander would leave his siege equipment near a decently-sized cliff, so the french guys will have to move them far too far to be safe or quiet. In fact, it'd probably be more efficient to simply swarm the camp at night and kill all the soldiers.
Now, compare that to the easy of cutting open some hide and/or applying decent amounts of some flammable liquid to the hide and letting it burn. You are also assuming the siege engines are totally complete.
When you think about it, rolling them off a cliff will only be really effective if the army has no watch, nobody awake at all, and everyone highly drugged. And if that's the case, a massacre would be much more effective.
To be honest, both pushing the towers off of a cliff and successfully preparing them for a proper burning seem like they would take nearly as much effort. Seeing as how the relative distance to the cliff is an unknown factor at this point, I'll drop that part of it for now, but keep in mind they (the solders) are close to the sea which is why the sauhagen are being utilized in the first place, so water to put a fire out isn't much of an issue. Combine that with the fact that covering it with oil takes time, just as pushing it over a cliff would take time, so if a watch is involved either idea would have to be executed in an initially stealthy matter, and both would probably assume the attempt of assassination of any guard that they come across.
The key difference is that well pushing the towers off of the cliff would probably result in their total destruction, it would undoubtedly be loud and draw the attention of even the sleeping solders as you say. Meanwhile, the fire would be easily put out, and still take time to set up in an effective manner as to adequately cripple the towers movement (I.E burn out half of it's hp), though it would probably risk less man power because the enemy could simply torch and run.
If this much manpower and resources are being put into the destruction of the towers it's probably a stall tactic for a bigger offensive in the future that would drive the army into retreat, since the army is situated near a coastal forest and the reconstruction of new towers would just be a matter of time. That being said, it would probably be wise to have a multifaceted plan that allowed for less of a margin of error and that would also occupy the troops in a fashion that would cause them to waist manpower and time.
Perhaps (if the sauhagen decide to us fire) the oil could be applied by a group inside to key points (since I doubt they would be able to get their hands on/carry enough oil to douse the whole of the tower) well an outer group attempts to push the siege engine over the cliff (the rate at which the tower moves should give hem enough time to be thorough and get out before hey go over the cliff as well). Should the alarm be sounded we'll they are going about shoving the tower, the sauhagen inside can act as a support team to deflect attacks or pick up the slack of any fallen "pushers". If they get the thing over the cliff they garnish with a fire tipped arrow/ thrown torch to light the remains ablazze to ensure that nothing is salvageable. If they get overwhelmed they simply toss a torch in and hope for the best as the retreat, probably to the beach to harass anyone trying to get water. If the plan follows through to completion they insure that the army needs to dedicate more time and men to rebuilding the towers effectively buying time, and in the worst case scenario they ensure that the towers are at least partially damaged prior to the engagement, and maybe loos a few men in the process.
To be honest, both pushing the towers off of a cliff and successfully preparing them for a proper burning seem like they would take nearly as much effort. Seeing as how the relative distance to the cliff is an unknown factor at this point, I'll drop that part of it for now, but keep in mind they (the solders) are close to the sea which is why the sauhagen are being utilized in the first place, so water to put a fire out isn't much of an issue. Combine that with the fact that covering it with oil takes time, just as pushing it over a cliff would take time, so if a watch is involved either idea would have to be executed in an initially stealthy matter, and both would probably assume the attempt of assassination of any guard that they come across.
Two points: One, they don't need to coat the entire thing, just start a nice blaze. It'll take care of itself from there. The second point is that, once youhave even a decent-sized flame, it's actually relatively hard to put out, even with modern methods. I doubt these guys will have access to fire hoses.
The key difference is that well pushing the towers off of the cliff would probably result in their total destruction, it would undoubtedly be loud and draw the attention of even the sleeping solders as you say. Meanwhile, the fire would be easily put out, and still take time to set up in an effective manner as to adequately cripple the towers movement (I.E burn out half of it's hp), though it would probably risk less man power because the enemy could simply torch and run.
Except that large fires are not easy to put out. This is especially true, since something like an unprotected siege tower should catch very quickly and easily.
So, how are you suggesting these unprepared soldiers in the middle of the night put out the siege towers? Physically push the burning structure into the ocean?
If this much manpower and resources are being put into the destruction of the towers it's probably a stall tactic for a bigger offensive in the future that would drive the army into retreat, since the army is situated near a coastal forest and the reconstruction of new towers would just be a matter of time. That being said, it would probably be wise to have a multifaceted plan that allowed for less of a margin of error and that would also occupy the troops in a fashion that would cause them to waist manpower and time.
Then burn down the forest, too. Fire is awesome like that.
But, seriously, when you look at it, it takes less than nine people to burn a structure. At most, have two or three people applying the oil before the torching. Much easier and faster, with less investment for the same reward.
Perhaps (if the sauhagen decide to us fire) the oil could be applied by a group inside to key points (since I doubt they would be able to get their hands on/carry enough oil to douse the whole of the tower) well an outer group attempts to push the siege engine over the cliff (the rate at which the tower moves should give hem enough time to be thorough and get out before hey go over the cliff as well). Should the alarm be sounded we'll they are going about shoving the tower, the sauhagen inside can act as a support team to deflect attacks or pick up the slack of any fallen "pushers". If they get the thing over the cliff they garnish with a fire tipped arrow/ thrown torch to light the remains ablazze to ensure that nothing is salvageable. If they get overwhelmed they simply toss a torch in and hope for the best as the retreat, probably to the beach to harass anyone trying to get water. If the plan follows through to completion they insure that the army needs to dedicate more time and men to rebuilding the towers effectively buying time, and in the worst case scenario they ensure that the towers are at least partially damaged prior to the engagement, and maybe loos a few men in the process.
That seems highly risky for no reward. The army has no effective means to put out a large fire. For a multifacetted plan, just have a couple of mid-level sahuagin rogues go and kill the leadership in their sleep while the rest torch the towers. Or poison the water supply or food. Or steal equipment. Or really, any number of things, all of which are less dangerous and more efficient than pushing a huge structure a long way to throw it off a cliff.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
You could run a real game without sitting around with calipers measuring the spaces between the keys on your keyboard, and keep the players involved and interested.
A player (who cares which?) is woken by a noise in the night, and the adventure begins, and if the players fight well, the siege engines are safe on the cliff, or if they roll bad dice, the engines go off the cliff.
Thanks for all the contributions. The reasoning of Lashius was especially helpful. I will also have a closer look on terrain features on the way to the cliff. It is true: Why should the ground be cleared in the wrong direction?
One rules question remains, though: How fast is dragging/pushing? 5 feet per full round action?
PHB: "Lifting and Dragging. A Charakcter can lift as much as his or her maximum load over his or her head. A character can lift as much as double his or her maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloeded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full round action). A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as fice times his or her maximum load." (PHB v.3.5, p. 162)
The PHB gives no further information on speed while dragging or pushing.
The sage says: "If you use the dragging rule (see page 162 in the Player's Handbook) to move something that exceeds your maximum load, you move at half speed." (All about movement (part two) - Skip Williams)
That leaves me with three different speeds that might apply:
- 10 feet for one move action (HoB rule on siege towers) - 5 feet for one full round action (PHB rule on lifting loads up to twice max load) - 15 feet for one move action (1/2 speed for sahuagin = sage advice on pushing/dragging quoted above)
plus the cryptic hint in HoB that the rules on carrying capacity in the PHB do regulate the speed of moving siege engines - which they do not as far as pushing or dragging is concerned. A case for editing. There have never been errata on "Heroes of Battle".
I think I will stick to the HoB rule on siege towers. Provided there is enough manpower a siege tower has speed 10. Period. That is fast enough to have recognizable movement and slow enough to build up suspense. The way to the cliff will be about 100 feet with some obstacles. Thus the PC's will have six to eight rounds to prevent the destruction of the towers.
As to the other issues raised:
- Destroying the siege towers other than by pushing them over the cliff. Not an option. They are created by druid specialists able to work a very hard and incombustible kind of wood. It would take other siege engines to destroy the towers. That is why they would be so valuable for the siege. As most of the special wood available (without logging) has been used for the towers they cannot be replaced.
- The element of surprise. The sahuagin have two objectives: destroy the towers and kill as many humans as they can before withdrawing. They are strong enough to cause a lot of casualties but not strong enough to fight the humans down. The construction site is 1 mile away from the camp as the druids do not like to share their secrets of working the special wood. Given their dual objective the sahuagin attack simultaneously at camp and construction site to take advantage of surprise at both battle grounds. They use the fires of the camp site to burn tents and panic horses. As no one expected attack the druids only had a small guard of trusted rangers. One of these reached the PC's at the end of the last session with a call for help. When the PC's reach the construction site three druids will still be defending one of the two towers while the rest is dead or has fled.
- Classic siege vs. magic use. For political and cultural reasons the conflicting nations have limited acess to magic. In the human chivalric nation they are tolerated individuals but not seen as honorable. There is no magic-using noble. No wizard or sorcerer is (openly) part of the army. There are some clerics and knights templar though. But as honor and feudal status is an important issue in this nation the clerics will limit their role to supporting the knights and not form divine magic elite units of their own. The opposing nation is a hobgoblin warrior state led by four ogre mages who pose as hobgoblins and never use magic in public. Many conservative hobgoblin shamans oppose the rulers (as the Ogres do not worship Maglubiyet) and there is no tradition of wizards or sorcerers amogst them. Thus their army consist almost exclusively of fighter types supported by a few hobgoblin clerics. The same applies to their subordinated goblin and kobold units. Sahuagin hate wizardry. They do have cleric but the ruthless, powerful fighter is the role model of sahuagin culture.
Thanks for all the contributions. The reasoning of Lashius was especially helpful. I will also have a closer look on terrain features on the way to the cliff. It is true: Why should the ground be cleared in the wrong direction?
One rules question remains, though: How fast is dragging/pushing? 5 feet per full round action?
PHB: "Lifting and Dragging. A Charakcter can lift as much as his or her maximum load over his or her head. A character can lift as much as double his or her maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloeded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full round action). A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as fice times his or her maximum load." (PHB v.3.5, p. 162)
The PHB gives no further information on speed while dragging or pushing.
The sage says: "If you use the dragging rule (see page 162 in the Player's Handbook) to move something that exceeds your maximum load, you move at half speed." (All about movement (part two) - Skip Williams)
That leaves me with three different speeds that might apply:
- 10 feet for one move action (HoB rule on siege towers) - 5 feet for one full round action (PHB rule on lifting loads up to twice max load) - 15 feet for one move action (1/2 speed for sahuagin = sage advice on pushing/dragging quoted above)
plus the cryptic hint in HoB that the rules on carrying capacity in the PHB do regulate the speed of moving siege engines - which they do not as far as pushing or dragging is concerned. A case for editing. There have never been errata on "Heroes of Battle".
I think I will stick to the HoB rule on siege towers. Provided there is enough manpower a siege tower has speed 10. Period. That is fast enough to have recognizable movement and slow enough to build up suspense. The way to the cliff will be about 100 feet with some obstacles. Thus the PC's will have six to eight rounds to prevent the destruction of the towers.
As to the other issues raised:
- Destroying the siege towers other than by pushing them over the cliff. Not an option. They are created by druid specialists able to work a very hard and incombustible kind of wood. It would take other siege engines to destroy the towers. That is why they would be so valuable for the siege. As most of the special wood available (without logging) has been used for the towers they cannot be replaced.
- The element of surprise. The sahuagin have two objectives: destroy the towers and kill as many humans as they can before withdrawing. They are strong enough to cause a lot of casualties but not strong enough to fight the humans down. The construction site is 1 mile away from the camp as the druids do not like to share their secrets of working the special wood. Given their dual objective the sahuagin attack simultaneously at camp and construction site to take advantage of surprise at both battle grounds. They use the fires of the camp site to burn tents and panic horses. As no one expected attack the druids only had a small guard of trusted rangers. One of these reached the PC's at the end of the last session with a call for help. When the PC's reach the construction site three druids will still be defending one of the two towers while the rest is dead or has fled.
- Classic siege vs. magic use. For political and cultural reasons the conflicting nations have limited acess to magic. In the human chivalric nation they are tolerated individuals but not seen as honorable. There is no magic-using noble. No wizard or sorcerer is (openly) part of the army. There are some clerics and knights templar though. But as honor and feudal status is an important issue in this nation the clerics will limit their role to supporting the knights and not form divine magic elite units of their own. The opposing nation is a hobgoblin warrior state led by four ogre mages who pose as hobgoblins and never use magic in public. Many conservative hobgoblin shamans oppose the rulers (as the Ogres do not worship Maglubiyet) and there is no tradition of wizards or sorcerers amogst them. Thus their army consist almost exclusively of fighter types supported by a few hobgoblin clerics. The same applies to their subordinated goblin and kobold units. Sahuagin hate wizardry. They do have cleric but the ruthless, powerful fighter is the role model of sahuagin culture.
Glad to be of help. In my opinion you should probably go with the listed speed of the siege tower, maybe add a bit more to it if the sauhagen can muster enough people to break past the push/drag mark with their combined weight limits. The over all rules seem to dictate that carrying capacity is the key to moving the towers, but I would assume that since they are on wheels that they move twice as fast as normal pushing would allow.
@EA: In regards to fires in D&D, creativity can be key in dealing with them. Even if the towers where not fire resistant create water is a 0 level spell so if they had any number of clerics in their unit they could have at least kept the fire at bay. Not to mention since they came on a boat there could have been the possibility that the ship had a decanter of endless water to provide for the troops drinking needs (that and a few field provision boxes can almost be considered staples of any large military force). In addition to that if anyone in the service of the army had been a mage with accesses to the spell pyrotechnics, they could simply have simply extinguished the fire by using it as a materiel component. All of this is also beside the fact that the fire would have to bring the structure down to half of it's HP, which would take a wile with mundane means.
Giorin, just a suggestion for simplicity. Since you have decided that the speed of the towers is 10', why not simply half that speed over difficult terrain (such as the terrain to the cliffs).
If it wasn't for Shadowfax, Gandalf never would have made it.
