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Switch to Forum Live View Best Designed Version of Each Class?
4 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2013 - 11:15AM #61
greatfrito
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Date Joined: Jun 27, 2004
Posts: 8,247
4e Rogue should be bolded, yes?
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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.

No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).

(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)

A Psion for Next (Playable Draft)
A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
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4 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2013 - 11:23AM #62
wrecan
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Yep.  Fixed.
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4 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2013 - 11:26AM #63
elecgraystone
Date Joined: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 1,407

Feb 10, 2013 -- 10:41AM, rampant wrote:

4e all around


Same for me. 4e classes win hands down. Now there are some things I liked from other editions, like the 1e barbarian being something of a wilderness skill monkey. I'd kind of like to see them focus more of that feature of the class and less on the 'hulk smash' part.

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4 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2013 - 11:28AM #64
Diffan
Date Joined: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 3,321
Since my recollection of pre-3E classes is extreamly shabby, I can really only offer my opinion based on the play experience of 3E (v3.5 + Pathfinder) and 4th Edition. That being said, I truely feel that very few classes of 3E meet the same expectations of a class-based game compared to 4E. This is just my personal opinion and even though I still like (and play) v3.5 when it comes to class design 4E did a much better job in focusing what a class is designed for instead of just throwing stuff at it from a cosmetic point of view. However, I do feel that 3E did a couple of classes well and think that their archtypes weren't carried over well (or outright ignored) by 4E so I'll list them below:

The Dread Necromancer - With no 4E equivalent (save the Essentials Death Cleric or Necromancer spells of th Wizard) I feel this class truely did a remarkable job in taking a singular concept and turning that into something extreamly well written and distinct from other classes who imitated the same style. The Wizard and his school specialty and/or the Cleric with his domains both don't hold a candle to achieving a Necromancer-esque feel the way the Dread Necromancer did. 

The Beguiler - I often consider this the 3E's version of the "Illusionist" because it's spell selection is so intricate with deception, illusion, and trickery. Another class that only is touched upon by 4E (as in, a focused wizard could be one but would fail and the Warlock's concept is too far "otherworldy") I think the blending of illusion magic + the ability to act like a limited rogue was definitly a cool concept that 3E did correctly. Sure, there are ways to imitate this class via 4E (hybrid + MC-feats) but I don't think it pulls off the concept as well as a singular class could.

The Bow Fighter - One of 4E's criticisms is that it's rigid structure limited options once considered a staple-point in class concepts. Most of the time, I think a concpt can be achieved so long as a person isn't beholden to writing a specific class name on the Class____________ part of the character sheet. However, the concept of a heavy armor wearing guy that is also extreamly proficient with a bow was lost in the debut of 4E. If you wanted a bow-fighting character, be a Ranger or Multiclass Ranger for their powers is a common phrase amongst 4E fans and in all honestly, it takes about the same amount of feats for a 4E Fighter to fight well with a bow as it does a 3E fighter. The difference is the 3E fighter does it faster and thus, creating the belief that it's impossible to achieve this concept at 1st level. Had WotC put a tad more forethought into classic concepts such as this, the belief of a inflexable structure might not have been so large. 3E's version of the Fighter had some pretty big problems, but diversity and flexability wasn't one of them. 

Other than that, I feel that class design and the focus on what a Class "IS" was best done by 4E due to it's implementation and structure of Roles. I understand that a lot of people don't like being pigeonholed into a singular "task" that the Roles element enforced, but to me that's a staple point of a Classed-based RPG. What 3E did, IMO, was probably the closest aspect to a classless system that D&D will (hopefully?) ever see because the character flexability was SO great that one could've just added points to class features it watch classes fade away for good.  
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4 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2013 - 12:10PM #65
Miladoon
Date Joined: May 24, 2012
Posts: 1,535
No love for Generic Classes?

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4 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2013 - 12:12PM #66
TheCosmicKid
Date Joined: Sep 5, 2009
Posts: 769

Feb 10, 2013 -- 7:30AM, stoloc wrote:

Just to illustrate why I feel this way- take a swashbuckler.  If you make him a fighter under the "fighters are the most fightery" paradigm then he will not have the sort of noncombat pinache that a swashbuckler should but if you make him a rogue he will not have the sort of fighting skill he needs.  If the kind of classes were created that I want this wouldn't be a problem.


I disagree, but I'm not going to pursue the point on this thread.  I'd link to some old posts of mine where I discuss my thoughts on swashbucklers, but this forum is proving difficult for me to search efficiently, so meh.  Let's just drop it and let the more topical discussion continue.

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4 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2013 - 5:28PM #67
viper5
Date Joined: Jun 11, 2012
Posts: 98
Now, I have only played characters from 3rd ed (and 3.5) and 4th, though have seen some material from earlier editions and have found information brought up on these boards very interesting, so here are my thoughts:

Artificer: One person in my play group is all over the artificer, and he LOVES the way the 4e one is presented. However, he is very big on magic item creation, and has definitely noted the difficulties the game has had with it.

Assassin: The shadowy assassin is really cool, and it was neat that 4e attached it to a different power source (Shadow), though the 3.x prestige class did feel kind of right conceptually (that a character of whatever class would become an assassin after time). I will also admit to being in the group that thinks that assassin could be done quite well as a rogue package of some sort lol.

Avenger: Obviously only around in 4e. It was an interesting class (always amusing stealthing around with a great weapon), though I think it was most interesting for its mechanical innovation (was a striker that gained what is now Advantage on attacks vs special target instead of bonus damage). As a concept, never found it terribly special; if it got folded into Paladin as the striker/dps style I wouldn't shed any tears hahaha.

Barbarian: Kind of torn here. 3.x managed to get the feel of the simple, raging barbarian really well. However, I lauded 4e in that its barbarian was finally truly different from a fighter (to which it felt waaaay too similar in 3rd), though I can understand not everyone digging the totemic channeling thing. I think keeping the primal source but having a sort of simple, inner rage character and an exotic, totem/channeling based rager would be really cool.

Bard: Being able to dabble in everything is really interesting, but can make it really hard to be a useful character. In 3rd especially, our groups had trouble with bards. 4e did a spectacular job by really propelling the bard's role forward (it was always supposed to be a 'leader' class), though I don't know how many people took advantage of the multiclass freedom it had.

Cleric: I am the token cleric in my playgroup, and I LOVE the 4e cleric. It allowed you to really make a more spellcasty cleric or a melee cleric and both were perfectly good. As melee, I was still behind the fighter in hitting, but was really close so I wasn't useless swinging a weapon (some of that bonus coming from taking superior/exotic proficiency which closes the gap), and even my basic melee attacks helped the group. I'll say that again, as 5th totally doesn't have anything like it: my at-will abilities let me buff or help my party. That was revolutionary! Melee clerics need love . That being said, 2e kits looked VERY interesting, and I am loving the deity system in 5e right now (though I would argue for allowing a clothy spellcaster or an armored warrior of ANY god lol). Special shout-out to Divine Power form 3.x though: it was broken when you got to cast it half a dozen times a day (poor overshadowed fighter D, but once, maybe twice it was really, really cool.

Druid: This gets tough. 3rd really encompassed all that people come to think of when you mention 'druids' in fantasy now. However, it did everything a bit too much (the whole CoDzilla scene). One nice step 4e did was separating Primal from Divine, and that added great flavor.  The base 4e druid was really neat, and got the shapeshifting and nature casting down pretty well, but a) lacked the healing, leader aspect (until essentials), and b) could have used more differentiating between druid that specialized elsewhere and one that really shapeshifted (different forms doing different things for the specialist, like a tank-y large animal form vs a dps-y one). I think if you made a druid that had base, although very limited, access to wildshape, nature spells, and heal/buff spells, and then made the druid specialize into one of those 3 to get the really useful effect, that could be cool.

Fighter: 4e fighter was a really nice piece of design, and it was great to see fighters get some abilities and some actual mechanics to help fulfill a guardian-like role. That being said, a) it was lacking a striker path (until essentials) and I can appreciate the beauty of the simple tree structure of the 3rd ed fighter. It was very pick up and play with a massive amount of customization. Someone mentioned earlier here the fighter's transformation in the Star Wars Saga Edition Soldier class, and I totally agree: it kept much of the simple elegance of the 3rd ed fighter, but added the talent trees to allow for soldier-only cuztomization and for special abilities if you wanted. Honestly, a fighter with a guardian, slayer, and warlord class feature and talent tree would be AMAZING! (sorry warlord for stitching you on to fighter!)

Monk: I think I like the feel of the 3.x monk better than the 4e monk, even if the 4e monk did a nice job of being its own thing. The 4e monk was cool, and had really innovative designs, but making it entirely psoinic was kind of weird and kind of made it lose some of its old flavor. (though I can appreciate others' opinions here about the troubles portraying the monk class over the years and the difficult task Wizards has).

Paladin: The first think I said when I saw the 4e paladin was "omg evil paladins!" I almost totally agree with an earlier poster about how cool the black guard was in 3rd, but I was always irritated that it was only a prestige class - that good guys got a divine champion from lvl 1 but bad guys didn't; we even made a reversed paladin to make an evil one once. So for 4e, the ability to make a villain right out of the gate was really great (beyond getting useful defendery mechanics). That being said, some people want a more leadery paladin and others a more strikery one, so I support a class feature where you get a choice of 1 of 3 things that will take you down the corresponding path. I am also cool with paladins are good, except in the rare case where they are evil (and those beings of pure darkness are to be feared, so when the party runs into an armored bad guy who busts out divine magic they're like O__O).

Psion: This is a rough one. Psion in 3rd was really neat, but was a giant mess, especially trying to tie in all the stats. It also suffered a LOT from "just a wizard but different" syndrome. 4e REALLY limited the purview of psions, but gave them a very unique mechanic that truly differentiated them from the arcane casters, which was great.

Ranger: Ranger's another tough one to tackle conceptually. 3rd might have had it with the animal companion and limited magic really making it different from a fighter. The 4e one was really neat, and felt kind of different, but how much of that was just role and range.... (otoh, I know people that like the non-magical ranger too, so....).

Rogue: In all truth, the rogue didn't change all that much from 3rd to 4th. They both had more skills, and special skills, than the others, and both did crazy damage with combat advantage/flanking. The 4e one tightened up the math though, which was really nice. And gave it some neat skill based abilities (which I will admit 3rd got with the Complete Scoundrel and skill tricks, but were just tighter in 4e).

Shaman: I don't think it was around in 3rd. Honestly found this one really strange and had wonky mechanics; I would have been totally cool with a healy druid lol. That being said, some people on the boards swear by shamans, so if there are people that like 'em, all the power to them.

Sorcerer: 4e definitely over the 3rd ed version. In 3.x, it was waaaaaay too similar to a wizard. In 4e, the combination of different role (though restricted roles is a point of contention and striker wizard does make sense), interesting bloodline mechanics (the chaos sorceror was HILARIOUS and fun) and a different spell list (courtesy of every class having its own powers) made it feel truly its own thing compared to wizard. This does become an admittedly difficult scenario to keep now. A friend and I were even considering whether or not there should be some schools of magic open to the innate caster but not the learned one, and vice-versa, so really push the difference between the int based learning and the cha based force of will.

Swordmage: There really wasn't any one specific "sword mage" in 3rd, but rather a bunch of sorta-kinda sword mage prestige classes. That was a bummer cuz a) you couldn't be a sword mage from the start, and b) 3rd had this kind of hatred of gishes (and red mages. poor me trying to make a gish that had some arcane and some divine spells >_<). While I wasn't totally in love with the power/spell selection in 4e, and it could have used a second role eventually, the sword mage was the first time there was really a strong fighter-wizard hybrid. (my actual cleric-swordmage hybrid multiclass wizard in 4e is tons of fun and makes for an excellent red mage :D).

Warlock: Never got to see the 3rd ed warlock in action, but from what i hear it was an entirely at-will caster, which is amazingly cool. They did a sorceror one in 4e I think (never saw it played, just glanced through the book). This deserves mention because an entirely at will caster is very neat, and could fit the simple caster concept very well. That being said, the pact system in 4e made for a very intestesting character that really acted different from a wizard, as well as from the other arcane striker (sorceror).

Warlord: Only around in 4e. A great, great class. I did not use it often, and I wasn't as big on moving my allies and giving them extra actions as I was on divine buffs, etc, so I stuck with cleric, but what I did see was very cool. It explored very innovative and useful design space, and rightfully there is a lot of love for it on the boards as well. That being said, a) I know there was a major issue with the concept of 'martial healing,' and b) I do think that the warlord could successfully be incorporated into the fighter as one of the 3 styles I mentioned, and that would give all fighters access to a little bit of battlefield tactics, which would help deepen the fighter in both combat and in character, while still letting diehard warlords take the appropriate class feature to get the healing (whatever form it may take).

Wizard: Last but not least, the wizard. This is another rough one. I think that 3rd most closely captures the wizard people are looking for: the depth and breadth of spells, the destruction and the utility, the great tool kit of useful and interesting spells to try and find the right one for the job. It was a very neat class. It was also very powerful, and that got difficult. 4e reigned in the power, and added at-will attack spells - which was amazing because it let you always feel like a casty wizard - but definitely cut down on the wizard's purview. Some say it was a necessary evil, other that the knife cut too deep (though it seems most agree something was needed). I think 5th/DDN is headed in the right direction: at-will spells, if you choose, to always feel like a wizard; rituals for lots of repeatable utility without that eating into normal spells per day, limited by time and, when realistic, materials; an interesting array of spells to choose from to otherwise fill the slots. I think the concept is there (even without encounter powers atm, as those really can be added in later as a slightly less potent, but reusable spell slot), it's just the math that needs polishing (spell damage #s and effects, and #s of spells, difference between 1st and 9th level spells, etc).
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 11, 2013 - 3:43AM #68
Lesp
Date Joined: May 5, 2009
Posts: 2,292
Note that I'm only comparing 3.5 to 4e. My experience with 2e is greater than nil, but not enough (and not recent enought) that I'm comfortable comparing anything. Additionally, I'm commenting on the playtest, but with its rapid shifts I'm not going to actually feel like I can vote for anything in it. (The cleric is the only one I'd even remotely entertain the idea of doing that for anyway.)

Artificer - None. I do not think that either 3.5 or 4e came close at all to what I want an artificer to be. They're both just wizards. They're both actually above-average class designs, but they really fail to deliver on concept.

Barbarian - The 3.5 barbarian is okay, but doesn't really have anything meaningful going on. I'd never choose to play one. The 4e barbarian has its issues, but is actually intriguing. The shell of a Next barbarian doesn't look that interesting, even by my exceptionally low standards for Next.

Bard - I prefer the 4e bard, by a hair. I actually also really like the PF bard.

Cleric - This is a toughie. On one hand, the 3.5 cleric is disruptively powerful; on the other hand, I really dislike how deity choice (generally) has no meaningful impact on the 4e cleric. (And it's not like 3.5 exactly has that in spades.) If 2e was in the mix, I'd vote for that. The Next playtest cleric is kind of promising. My personal bias is that a cleric should loudly announce who they serve in the form of their powers - enough that I'll vote for 3.5's noisiest development error.

Druid - If we're spotting 4e the Warden and the Shaman in this category, then I'd give it to them, but I don't like the 4e druid at all. I know that Wildshaping into arbitrary DM material was el busto, but I feel like you can tone that down without making wildshape nothing but a drawback mechanic that gets you off-action shifts sometimes. As with Cleric, I'm going to ignore massive, embarassing development errors and go with 3.5. This is a case where the Pathfinder version puts both 3.5 and 4e utterly to shame.

Fighter - Boring 2-level nothing class, or emblem of the height of its editions strengths? This is a slam dunk for 4e. The Next version is wobbly but still better than 3.5. (It's completely dismal compared to the 4e version, but most things are.)

Monk - The 3.5 monk is a steaming pile, and the gold star on top of the "not giving even an iota of thought to how the words you're messily spilling onto the page are going to affect gameplay" Xmas tree. The 4e one, by virtue of being "fine" wins by default. Next version is reasonably promising, by Next standards. This has the honor of being the one class that PF managed to deepen the design errors on, although it has the best and coolest archetypes.

Paladin - Eh. The 4e paladin was one of the weaker offerings, especially initially, but it wasn't an actively bad design. I guess 4e by default.

Psion - The 3.5 Psion has the best spellcasting system in the entire edition, by a lot. The 4e Psion had development errors that encouraged using the same powers for your entire adventure, level one to level 30. Easy check for 3.5.

Ranger - Not a class in 3.5 (and what it is of a class is kneecapped in the concept-mechanics synch department by 3.5's not-at-all-thought-out TWF rules), and pretty one-trick-pony in 4e. I'm trying to limit the number of '4e by default' instances, but I dont' know what else to do here.

Rogue - Both are solid designs. I guess a tie? I like the PF ninja.

Sorcerer - The 3.5 sorcerer feels like it plays a more important role in its system, as the vaguely slightly resonant arcanist. The 4e sorcerer felt more expendible. Just sort of on an emotional gut thing, I'm going with 3.5.

Warlock - I really like both the 3.5 and 4e Warlocks. The 4e Warlock, at least initially, however, was one of the weaker offering, and the 3.5 Warlock is really cool.

Wizard - The 3.5 wizard got shackled with the ugliest version of the system's direly ugly primary spellcasting system. It's hard for me to pick anything that so completely and thorougly fails to deliver on concept. The 4e wizard wasn't the most exciting thing in 4e, but anything's better than that look people make when you describe Vancian casting to them for the first time.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 11, 2013 - 5:49AM #69
wrecan
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Results in boldface beat its nearest competition by double. 

Class BECMI 1e 2e 3e/PF 4e Playtest
Artificer 0 0 0 3 1 0
Assassin 0 0 2 1 2 0
Avenger 0 0 0 0 3 0
Barbarian 0 5 7 10½ 1
Bard 0 2 4 0
Cleric 0 0 7 4
Druid 0 4 8 0
Elf 1 0 0 0 0 0
Fighter 2 1 2 5 14 1
Monk 0 3 1 4 9 0
Paladin 0 1 5 7 12 0
Psion 0 0 0 3 1 0
Ranger 0 3 3 0
Rogue 0 5 10 1
Shaman 0 0 0 0 2 0
Sorcerer 0 0 0 3 3 1
Swordmage 0 0 0 0 1 0
Warlock 0 0 1 1
Warlord 0 0 0 2 12 0
Wizard 0 2 2 1


Updated!
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 11, 2013 - 6:20AM #70
Father-Dagon
Date Joined: Jan 10, 2013
Posts: 740

Feb 11, 2013 -- 5:49AM, wrecan wrote:

Results in boldface beat its nearest competition by double. 




Is there any way to account for people who have plainly stated that they have no pre 3E experience? In effect, they have rendered half of the polling data useless, and biased the results. I see 3 people stating this just on this page alone.

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1. Create a version of D&D that embraces the enduring, core elements of the game.
2. Create a set of rules that allows a smooth transition from a simple game to a complex one.
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