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4 months ago ::
Feb 06, 2013 - 8:52AM
#1
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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So, apparently a large portion of the base doesn't like healing surges. Yet propoprtionate healing makes a ot of sense and takes care of a lot of problems. What if the character sheet did the following: Your hit points are divided into 5 stages. Divide your hp into six, rounding down (min. 1). So your hp may appear as follows:
| HP |
Stage |
22
|
5 (max) |
| 17 |
4 |
| 13 |
3 |
| 8 |
2 |
| 4 |
1 |
| 0 |
0 |
Then the cure spells would say: Cure Light Wounds: Heal 1d8+4 hp or restore your hp or to the first stage value, whichever is greater. Cure Moderate Wounds: Heal 2d8+4 hp or to the second stage value, whichever is greater. Cure Serious Wounds: Heal 3d8+4 hp or to the third stage value, whichever is greater. Cure Critical Wounds: Heal 4d8+4 hp or to the fourth stage value, whichever is greater. Inflict spells would inflict that much damage or reduce your hp by one or more stages. Calculating hp stages isn't very complicated, since you only do it when you level up. Electronic sheets would calculate it for you. It provides a framework for wound charts (which I hate but others like). It allows for effects based on your stage as well. (I.e., this effect kills creatures who have fewer hp than their first stage value.)
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4 months ago ::
Feb 06, 2013 - 8:54AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2006
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Calculating hp stages isn't very complicated, since you only do it when you level up. Electronic sheets would calculate it for you. It provides a framework for wound charts (which I hate but others like). It allows for effects based on your stage as well. (I.e., this effect kills creatures who have fewer hp than their first stage value.)
An interesting alternate mechanic, but I think it would tie in better with a wound chart that as a replacement for healing surges.
As is, hit dice scale well (which is what this looks like it is trying to do, mainly) but it doesn't have the major benefit of healing surges in that it doesn't limit daily magical healing.
And if all the people that hate healing surges start liking this, I don't even...
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 06, 2013 - 12:13PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2007
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Calculating hp stages isn't very complicated, since you only do it when you level up. Electronic sheets would calculate it for you. It provides a framework for wound charts (which I hate but others like). It allows for effects based on your stage as well. (I.e., this effect kills creatures who have fewer hp than their first stage value.)
I like it, mostly because it makes healing scale while at the same time insuring that minor healing isn't enough for high level tough characters. It gives space for clerics to scale healing a bit, without healing becoming over powered.
it doesn't have the major benefit of healing surges in that it doesn't limit daily magical healing.
Healing surges in 4e are not much of a limit anway, they are easy to move between characters via ritual and many characters will have more healing surges then they can practically use in a day. The more practical limit is simply the limited number of daily healing powers you can get.
I always had the impression that the number of healing surges was set fairly high with the intent of using them to power magic items and other non-healing effects. In practice this didn't turn out to work well, so they stopped using them for anything but healing, without ever reducing the number of healing surges.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 06, 2013 - 12:36PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2006
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I like it, mostly because it makes healing scale while at the same time insuring that minor healing isn't enough for high level tough characters. It gives space for clerics to scale healing a bit, without healing becoming over powered.
Cure light heals one surge worth; cure moderate heals two surges; cure serious heals 3 surges worth; cure critical heals to full (oh look, very close to exactly how that works in 4e).
Healing surges in 4e are not much of a limit anway
From what I understand, if you run the 4e modules WotC has published, this is very true. In my personal experience, it's an extremely limiting factor (and then some), perhaps because I try to really challenge my players. I've gone over earlier in another thread why that works; even on top of that, you can say "healing surges in 4th edition didn't work because you had too many of them" and then simply reduce the number of healing surges in a game. This is a great, obvious, transparent way to easily scale the difficulty of a game.
they are easy to move between characters via ritual and many characters will have more healing surges then they can practically use in a day.
If a group has 40 healing surges altogether, it doesn't matter if one person has 12 and another 8, etc etc. If you actually wear down on your group properly - in the manner I think the game intended, when it wasn't on easy mode - then your group will walk into encounters with the defender at 3 surges, a striker at 1, another striker lucky at 2, and the healer only has 2.
The more practical limit is simply the limited number of daily healing powers you can get.
Practical? No. Traditional? Yes. Better? No. What happens if you have two healers in the group? Suddenly your group can go, more or less literally, twice as long before a long rest. How do you balance out consumable healing items like healing potions?
they stopped using them for anything but healing, without ever reducing the number of healing surges
I'm not sure who "they" are. The writers of the 4e adventure books? There are a number of class features, abilities, magic items, and rituals that involve surges. Moreover, there are monsters that deal damage in the form of removing surges. Related to why healing surges are better than just limited healing powers, you can use surges in a half-dozen utilitarian ways. It speeds book-keeping, enhances game play, and adds in tactical and character choices into the game.
Am I the only 4e DM that had traps that dealt damage in surges? Included monsters (especially life-sucking undead) that took away surges? Diseases/curses that reduce surge value? Enforced using surges for elixers? Am I the only 4e DM that properly challenged his players that they actually needed as many surges as they had?
I'm not being satrical here: Am I the only 4e DM that challenged his players?
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 06, 2013 - 12:38PM
#5
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
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And if all the people that hate healing surges start liking this, I don't even...
There were many, many reasons to dislike healing surges which have nothing to do with healing being scaled to max HP. Most notably, healing surges were tied into the heavy abstraction of HP, to the point where you could just shrug and recover HP. (To contrast, Next currently requires the use of a healer's kit in order to recover HP - implying that all lost HP are actual wounds.)
Merely using one-quarter or one-fifth max HP as a convenient base number for magical healing is a completely separate point that has very little to do with any prior implementation of healing surges.
So yes, I'm a big fan of this sort of healing module, even though I hate healing surges.
The metagame is not the game.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 06, 2013 - 12:39PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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I like it. Six is a good number, as well. Four would be too few, eight too many.
Straightforward, flexible, can support modification.
I like it.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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4 months ago ::
Feb 06, 2013 - 12:52PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2006
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Most notably, healing surges were tied into the heavy abstraction of HP, to the point where you could just shrug and recover HP. (To contrast, Next currently requires the use of a healer's kit in order to recover HP - implying that all lost HP are actual wounds.)
If you're using hit points as a direct wound system, and this makes sense to you, I don't know what to tell you. D&D has used an abstract hit point system since 2e, and this has been written and explained explicitly in the core books in every edition since then. I'm pretty sure it was that way in 1e too, but I never played it so couldn't expressly say so.
As far as shrugging and healing, are you perhaps confusing the "Second Wind" mechanic with healing surges? I don't see what you don't like about that concept; the hero coming thru after being beaten down is a very common troupe, in both film and literature.
Merely using one-quarter or one-fifth max HP as a convenient base number for magical healing is a completely separate point that has very little to do with any prior implementation of healing surges.
Actually using healing surges to scale healing was a major point of why to even use them.
So yes, I'm a big fan of this sort of healing module, even though I hate healing surges.
You don't like a limit on daily magical healing.
I still have yet to find a good mechanical reason why surges are bad, other than "I really don't like them because of the way I choose to view them".
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 06, 2013 - 1:01PM
#8
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I like it. Six is a good number, as well. Four would be too few, eight too many.
Six was my other option, mostly because stage three becomes the bloodied value which seems too useful to abandon. The only problem with six is that it becomes a bit too much for low-level characters, many of whom might only have six or eight hp. But I'm not totally opposed to having six stages.
Four could be fine, but there's no way to distinguish all the healing spells. The healing spells have a pretty nice progression:
- Cure Light
- Cure Moderate
- Cure Serious
- Cure Critical
- Mass Cure
- Heal
- Improved Mass Cure
- ??
- Mass Heal
With only four stages, there's nothing more Cure Ciritical to do. (Or, more precisely, Cure Ciritcal and Heal would do the same thing.)
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4 months ago ::
Feb 06, 2013 - 1:03PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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I'm not seeing the formula from your example wrecan. Shouldn't each stage have roughly the same HP amount? It seems like you are having each stage ~20% of your max HP (round down), with the left over being evenly distributed among the top stages.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 06, 2013 - 1:03PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Perhaps stages could be limited by Hit Dice. As in, at 1 HD you only have one stage, and CLW heals you to full (which it probably does already, just by the numerical heal). Two HD gets you two stages, and so on, until you reach some maximum number of stages.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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