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Switch to Forum Live View Wandering Monsters: Hellenic Half-Humans
5 months ago  ::  Feb 04, 2013 - 9:59PM #1
Plaguescarred
Date Joined: May 12, 2009
Posts: 16,974
Wandering Monsters
Hellenic Half-Humans

By James Wyatt

The half-humans are up next in Wandering Monsters. James goes over centaurs, satyrs, and harpies, plus revisits the minotaur.

Talk about this column here.

Fairest of Them All
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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5 months ago  ::  Feb 04, 2013 - 11:20PM #2
Plaguescarred
Date Joined: May 12, 2009
Posts: 16,974
How well does the centaur described here match with your sense of the iconic D&D creature?
Yeah, I recognize that as a centaur. 

And how well does the satyr described here match with your sense of the iconic D&D creature?
Yeah, I recognize that as a satyr. 

And how well does the harpy described here match with your sense of the iconic D&D creature?
Its siren song lures me in!

Male harpies? Male nymphs and dryads? Female satyrs?
 
Yes. The game should reflect the changing times.  (Im for more options, IMC i can always decide that they have no female counterpart if desired)

Does my refinement to the minotaur make the race description better, worse, or the same? 
Better, and it's just about right.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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5 months ago  ::  Feb 04, 2013 - 11:23PM #3
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 10,239
For your consideration, my respose to the column:

"I resist the idea of creating male nymphs or female satyrs."
Really? Because your description of Satyrs is entirely sex-neutral, avoiding the question at all, and is therefore PERFECT because it lets us project our own additional assumption onto the creature.

Please realize that this question about whether to include male dryads or female satyrs is NOT about your specifically stating that they exist. You do not have to say that they exist to satisfy the camp that sees many of these single-sex creatures as problematic. Rather it is about not precluding their existence when doing so is unnecessary. All that you have to do is keep the description open to interpretation, just as you've done here with the Satyr, just as D&D has done with many of these creatures in the past.

If you want examples, check out the Dryad's 4E MM description or the Harpy's 3.5 MM description. The strength of these descriptions is that, if you believe these creatures should be exclusively female, their descriptions will let you go right on thinking that because they make no mention of males of these species. At the same time, if you believe that these creature should represent both sexes (or, in the case of the Dryad, a hermaphroditic creature, which makes the most since because it's an oak tree spirit), their descriptions will let you go right on thinking that too because they make no mention of any sex exclusivity.

This brings up the flaw in asking which D&D version of a creature is the most iconic, because often time, multiple people can look at the exact same description of a monster and walk away with different interpretations of it, and that is a GOOD thing. I guarantee somebody walked away from your description of the Satyr thinking they were exclusively male (apparently even you yourself?) while I walked away from it thinking how great it was that the door was open again for female ones. This Satyr is the perfect example of a win-win.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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5 months ago  ::  Feb 04, 2013 - 11:29PM #4
Plaguescarred
Date Joined: May 12, 2009
Posts: 16,974
I am good with descriptions open to interpretations as explained by C_C
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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5 months ago  ::  Feb 05, 2013 - 4:26AM #5
Orzel
Date Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Posts: 3,369
Part of me wants some of the monster description room mention settings in order to broaden the view of these types of creatures. Just mention that "in some settings, X is Y" and be done with it. My minotaurs aren't cursed (the large savage minotaurs come from the noble medium ones) and my harpies are both sexes (though males are rarely seen). Monster lore sound be accessible to new DMs and DM who don't want/need to change from convention while still encouraging others to customize their worlds.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.

Constitution Based Class for Next!
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5 months ago  ::  Feb 05, 2013 - 4:48AM #6
CarlT
Date Joined: Apr 10, 2009
Posts: 2,881
I always preferred to think of the creatures with one gender as highly sexually dimorphic species.



The succubus and the incubus are the same 'species' - but the sexes look very different.

The satyr and one(all of?)  of the various nymph types are the same 'species' - but the sexes look very different.


Etc.


And in some other cases, the answer is clear - it just isn't particularly family-friendly.  There is a reason why races such as the Harpy are known for kidnapping travellers - and a reason why they often lay eggs not too long afterwards.  It just doesn't make for good copy in a game.


The same goes for the Dryad ("...if near a male with a 16 or greater charisma,  the dryad will use her powerful charm person spell....If a person is taken away by a Dryad there is a 50% chance they will never return and if they do return it will be from 1 to 4 years later.... .  Clearly the Dryad also keeps the male around for child care during those first few years as well.

So there are only female dryads, succubi, nymphs etc (and only male incubi and satyrs) - because the opposite gender looks and behaves so differently that we see them as entirely different creatures.


Carl
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5 months ago  ::  Feb 05, 2013 - 4:53AM #7
edwin_su
Date Joined: Aug 25, 2007
Posts: 3,066
these creatures are based om greek mytoligy, if a creature based on mytoligy i woulden't mins a line in there mentioning where ine insperation came from.
 
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5 months ago  ::  Feb 05, 2013 - 4:54AM #8
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 10,239

Feb 5, 2013 -- 4:48AM, CarlT wrote:

The succubus and the incubus are the same 'species' - but the sexes look very different.


This succubus/incubus thing is one of those dichotomies that never made a bit of sense to me. They're they're the exact same thing only one is female and the other is male? But they're both shape-shifters? No, that makes no sense. What makes far more sense is that succibi and incubi are the same thing, not even different sexes of the same species but actually the same thing. When it takes the form of a women, people call it a succubus, and when it takes the form of a man, people call it an incubus, bit it's the same creature. Anything else just makes no sense. It's not like there's ever been anything preventing succubi from taking male forms with their shape-shifting abilities or incubi from taking female forms with their shape-shifting abilities, and I know that at least 3E, 3.5, and 4E all statted succubi and incubi as totally identical.
EDIT: Yeah, the 4E MM even outright says that Succubi use "their shapechanging abilities to appear as attractive men and women".

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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5 months ago  ::  Feb 05, 2013 - 4:54AM #9
Koga305
Date Joined: May 31, 2008
Posts: 178
Personally, I was disappointed with the description for Centaurs. Even in Greek legend, Centaurs were not predominantly Chaotic Good and nature-y (although Chiron, the classic "heroic mentor" was, he was an exception rather than a rule). Instead, Hercules fought wild, brutal tribes of wild Centaurs every bit as bacchanal as Saytrs and even more dangerous. I'd like to see these types of Centuars acknowledged within the rules - and what's more scary than a thousand pounds of berserking doom charging at you?

The others in the article were fine - not great, but the Harpies sounded fairly interesting. 
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5 months ago  ::  Feb 05, 2013 - 5:48AM #10
Luis_Carlos
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 2,554
* Centaurs should be designed like potential future PC class. If bairaurs from Planescape were PC race centaurs too.

* I don´t mind the canon, for me satyrs can be male and females. About background...I can´t imagine them like a bunch of stupy but happy hippies-like who are for all day drinking, dancing and playing music (and eating magic moshroom and licking toads) while in the next region orcs are making a genocide againts the wood elves or a shifter tribe is being slavered by a red dragon.

* I don´t like the idea of harpyes like creatures with parthenogenesis (only if it is a option). I would rather the idea sometime some harpyes could be hot bird-woman..(it can´t worse tha avariels/winged elves or raptorans from "Races of wild"). 

* The gamers can choose the background they want, if we want a male nymph we could use the name "efebus" or "kouros". 

* A "subrace" of minotaurs could be a PC race. If they is a future module about monter/racial classes....the minotaur should in one of the first places of the list.

*  The male arpy could be the "mandulis" or "meruel".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandulis
"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)


Book 13 Anaclet 23

Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"
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