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4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 7:30AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2011
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One of the things I'm noticing with my playtest sessions is that PCs and monsters don't move around so much when they are in combat. If they fear AoO, they generally stay put once engaged with an enemy, and then they just trade blows with their opponent. I think there needs to be a way to encourage more movement and more creativity. In that way, I liked using the first playtest (no AoO) package better (although there needed to be some rule to prevent or limit "conga line" tactics", and a way to protect comrades).
Here's one way I'm going to try to encourage more movement and creativity as an option.
If a PC or creature is engaged in combat, it can use part of its "move action" attempt to break away from threat and move unhindered if it succeeds in a skill challenge vs. the opponent. Both the PC or creature trying to disengage, and the creature trying to keep the other pinned down, can roll an ability check using any of the following:
Strength -- trying to use brute force to break away or keep another from breaking away.
Dexterity -- trying to move quickly using agility to break away or keep another from breaking away.
Intelligence -- trying to predict movements and use logic to break away or keep another from breaking away.
Wisdom -- trying to use intuition and overall feel of the combat to break away or keep another from breaking away.
Charisma -- trying to trick (bluff or intimidate) to break away or keep another from breaking away.
If a creature or PC is threatened by more than one foe, the foe (only one foe should roll not all of them) gains advantage on the contest.
Allowing PCs to decide which ability to use makes it so that all classes can have access to this "disengage move action", and the mechanic in general fits with the improv guidelines in the playtest rules. It will also limit or eliminate "conga line" and give PCs a chance to protect comrades. I can see it adding choice and more drama to combats.
What do you all think, and who would like more dynamic movement in combat? What are your ideas?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 7:49AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2010
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That is one of the game features (AOO) that the fighter should get versus everyone else. It would demonstrate they excel in combat, and would exhibit some of the combat stickiness they should have.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 8:25AM
#3
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This is a damned-if-you-do / damned-if-you-don't problem.
People are moving around indiscrimenently! Nothing is stopping monsters rushing out of flanks and charging the spellcasters!
Okay we'll fix that by adding a core Attack of Opportunity system.
People are standing statically around, afraid to provoke! Combat has no movement.
Okay... we'll fix that by... um....
The 4e fix for this was cramming movement into as many powers as posible, so you could just move for free with every other attack. Which made the game feel a little boardgamey and really increased reliance on the grid.
The PF fix for this was more related to the benefits of full attacking versus moving and attacking, and related to the Vital Strike feat chain, where you could get the equivalent of 2[w]+Str attacks.
Generally, fights in 5e are quick enough that the obvious congo line is less obvious and doesn't have the same amount of time to get established. Many multiple opponents also helps.
Personally, the best fix is finding ways to encourage movement without mandating it.
Terrain is a handy system neutral fix. If there's a pit or pool of lava or puddle of tar then suddenly the party will look at that and try and hammer the monsters into the terrain. Giving the fighters and other martial classes an excuse to push and move the enemies encourages movement.
Monsters can keep things mobile by moving themselves. Sacraficing actions to get away. By also trying to use the terrain and environment.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 8:34AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Feb 19, 2012
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Rhenny, I dig it. I think there are multiple rules which could deter breaking combat than AOO. I think we're both on the side of movement over AOO.
That said, houseruling flanking to have ramifications does encourage some short range coordinated circles. Oh, and spring attack. Spring attack is nice.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning."
-Mike Mearls
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4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 9:40AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2006
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I'm waiting for the "tactical grid-based combat" module to drop to add in spice like this to the fights. If they can make it work, great. If they can't, oh well, I have other options.
I am not sure if I think OAs should be in D&DN-Basic or D&DN-Core.
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 9:50AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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What was wrong with the concept of standard, move, minor action? Shifting and charging wasn't a bad option to rearrange the battlefield. "Theatre of the mind" folks could handwave all that mess away anyways if it hurt their versimilitudes.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 9:57AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2010
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Strength -- trying to use brute force to break away or keep another from breaking away.
Dexterity -- trying to move quickly using agility to break away or keep another from breaking away.
Intelligence -- trying to predict movements and use logic to break away or keep another from breaking away.
Wisdom -- trying to use intuition and overall feel of the combat to break away or keep another from breaking away.
Charisma -- trying to trick (bluff or intimidate) to break away or keep another from breaking away.
Nice. In the first playtest packet, I actually houseruled something similar to this, but it was only based on Dex (and maybe Guardian Theme could use Str?).
I like that you've opened it up to all ability scores, and there's the potential to drop skill dice on top of the checks where appropriate.
I would maybe give the fighter advantage when contesting someone trying to move away from him/her. Either that, or make it a feat and/or part of one of the feats in the Protector feat-line.
Rhenny, I dig it. I think there are multiple rules which could deter breaking combat than AOO. I think we're both on the side of movement over AOO. That said, houseruling flanking to have ramifications does encourage some short range coordinated circles. Oh, and spring attack. Spring attack is nice.
While being flanked, maybe checks to break away from one of the opponents (to focus on the other) would occur at a disadvantage.
As to Spring Attack, unfortunately it is currently fighter-only, so while that helps the fighter be more mobile it doesn't help anyone else.
I want "punch magic in the face" to be a maneuver
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4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 10:26AM
#8
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I find, with the ability to move around in an enemies threatened range, that there's much more movement than before. YMMV.
My two copper.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 10:34AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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Instead of making real opportunity attacks, heroes and monsters can automatically deal damage equal to their Strength modifier if an opportunity attack is triggered.
Find a way to scale that for higher levels, and you have a solution that's a) significant, but not back-breaking, and b) quick to adjudicate.
"People want balance but can't accept this homogenization that occurs as a result of that balance being implemented. then they complain that the fighter is weaker than the wizard ad nauseam.: - Teitan
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4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 10:52AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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Well the big issue is that without flanking or higher ground benefits there's no need for the constant adjustment and short range maneuvers. Most monsters can be put down quickly enough that there's no point in trying to maneuver out of their reach once combat is joined in earnest, and those that aren't pushovers tend to have reach already so unless you can dance around another large beasty or a big clump of people to keep the first beast off your tail there's just not much point is there.
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