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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 7:31PM
#1
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If, as DM, you do not mind occasionally invalidating player choices to fit your pre-conceived notion of what is better (usually because it is necessary for your 'plot' or 'story' or whathaveyou) would you have an issue posting here in admittance of that?
This includes presenting options that do not actually matter. This includes fudging dice or die results to make things "better" (of course in your own opinion) for the game or the story or whatever. This includes things like magician switches and quantum-game components.
If so, and you are willing to admit to it openly on the thread, would you also be willing to direct your players to this thread?
If not, why?
If the answer to "why" in the previous question is "Because it would remove the illusion of choice I have made for them" or something similar, how would you ever reconcile that with the act of teaching a player to DM? Would, in fully teaching them, that act not destroy the very illusion so carefully crafted to trick them as a player?
Thanks for any replies! I am very intrigued by this topic and what I might learn from it!
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
My blog and stuff http://dmingtowin.blogspot.com/
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 8:19PM
#2
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I think you need to define "invalidating player choices" because I don't even try to present choices that are invalid but I think you and I might consider different things to be invalidation based on your other thread about railroading.
To use (and expound upon) my previously expressed example:
Team Hero must get to Tol Honeth, the greatest port in the Tolnedran Empire. From where they are they may choose two basic paths, to travel overland along the great trade road, risking bandits and wandering Monsters when they pass near Ulgoland or take ship and risk seasonal storms and the assaults of Cherek pirates.
If I make one of my encounters a group of humans that I can flavor as either bandits (if they took the land route) and Pirates (if they go by sea), have I invalidated their choice? I don't think so.
If you do regard that as "Invalidating there choice" then yes, I would have no problem admitting to your concept of 'invalidation' or directing my players here to read this post.
*Edit* if they try to travel Overland as a method of taking a third choice, avoiding the trade road, I can still have them encounter the bandits and monsters. Teleportation and Flight may be a true third option, but if they have those options I would be aware of that and could still reflavor the human encounter to be appropriate (for Flight). But the humans can be reflavored as a street urban encounter as well if they teleport.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 8:22PM
#3
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I think you need to define "invalidating player choices" because I don't even try to present choices that are invalid but I think you and I might consider different things to be invalidation based on your other thread about railroading.
To use (and expound upon) my previously expressed example:
Team Hero must get to Tol Honeth, the greatest port in the Tolnedran Empire. From where they are they may choose two basic paths, to travel overland along the great trade road, risking bandits and wandering Monsters when they pass near Ulgoland or take ship and risk seasonal storms and the assaults of Cherek pirates.
If I make one of my encounters a group of humans that I can flavor as either bandits (if they took the land route) and Pirates (if they go by sea), have I invalidated their choice? I don't think so.
If you do regard that as "Invalidating there choice" then yes, I would have no problem admitting to your concept of 'invalidation' or directing my players here to read this post.
*Edit* if they try to travel Overland as a method of taking a third choice, avoiding the trade road, I can still have them encounter the bandits and monsters. Teleportation and Flight may be a true third option, but if they have those options I would be aware of that and could still reflavor the human encounter to be appropriate (for Flight). But the humans can be reflavored as a street urban encounter as well if they teleport.
What you have described is known as a "Magician's switch" and indeed it is a form of invalidation.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
My blog and stuff http://dmingtowin.blogspot.com/
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 8:38PM
#4
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Hm, I read it called a magician's force in one of Robert Asprin's Myth books but why should I build 3 different encounters mechanically when the same one with cosmetic changes does the work?
Any who, with us getting that out of they way, Yes I am willing to invalidate players choices as you define it and have no trouble directing my players here to see that.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 9:40PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jul 17, 2010
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If, as DM, you do not mind occasionally invalidating player choices to fit your pre-conceived notion of what is better (usually because it is necessary for your 'plot' or 'story' or whathaveyou) would you have an issue posting here in admittance of that?
This includes fudging dice or die results to make things "better" (of course in your own opinion)
I agree with Jonathan_Sicari's notion of reskinning an encounter to apply to whatever choice the players made. I don't see it as a "Magician's Switch" as much as DM working with the player's choices and making an encouter that fits with that plotline. It's easier for the DM to reskin the encounter, however it's probably better for the DM to have a new/different/better encounter available for whatever the players decide. For the many DM's that don't have the time to prepare separate encounters for the major choices the players could take, reskinning seems appropriate to me. We're not Batman-DM, we don't have 5 plans for the player's actions and 5 plans for each other choci ethe palyers could make.
And yes, I have fudged Die rolls to make things "better." sometimes it's been to avoid a second crit on a PC that would knock that character out or kill them outright. Sometimes it's been to make a near miss into a hit, for both players and enemies. If a player misses by 1, I may turn that into a hit because it helps speed combat along just a little bit. Every once in a while. I'll make an enemy's miss into a hit. I often roll in the open, and I've told my players who have had near misses, or drop enemy to <5hp "Eff it, rule of cool, you hit/kill it." And then I ask "How do you kill that enemy?"
I see the problems inherent in fudging rolls, but I don't care. I believe that the mark of a great DM is creating engaging sessions. We can argue about it and get mad about it, but what matters in the end run is whether the particular DM's players are having a good time in the campaign.
I'm very curious about how Iserith and Centauri run their games, and based on what I've heard of Lunar Savage's games, I don't think I'd have fun as a palyer there, but his players have a lot of fun. I won't argue against that playstyle, but it's not for me. I'm nost sure if Iserith and Centauri's playstyle works for me either, but I don't know since I've never played in it, and I learn best by doing rather than talking about it. I don't know about YagamiFire's playstyle, I think it could be engaging and fun, but I don't know until I play in the game or see more about how it's done.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 10:00PM
#6
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If so, and you are willing to admit to it openly on the thread, would you also be willing to direct your players to this thread?
Yes. They know it and I know it. And the game is not lesser for it, it's better for it. Why? Because we all know what we like.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 10:49PM
#7
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If, as DM, you do not mind occasionally invalidating player choices to fit your pre-conceived notion of what is better (usually because it is necessary for your 'plot' or 'story' or whathaveyou) would you have an issue posting here in admittance of that?
I know that I used too when I was a younger less experienced DM. I find invalidating players choices would be even more work for me than allowing my players to take the game in new and intrestering directions.
This includes presenting options that do not actually matter.
I've been in games like that and didn't appreciate it, so I do my best not to do it to them. But I'm not going to lie and say that I've never done it.
If so, and you are willing to admit to it openly on the thread, would you also be willing to direct your players to this thread?
I feel that if you can't talk your players about stuff like this, that's half the problem. As useful as these boards can be I at times sense a hint of Gamer Mentality not only from myself but from other posters.
I'd direct my players here. They read different ideas and perhaps a a few new ones of their own. My players need to know how I run so they can comment on what I do as a DM and help me become a better DM for them.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 11:43PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
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If, as DM, you do not mind occasionally invalidating player choices to fit your pre-conceived notion of what is better (usually because it is necessary for your 'plot' or 'story' or whathaveyou) would you have an issue posting here in admittance of that?
This includes presenting options that do not actually matter. This includes fudging dice or die results to make things "better" (of course in your own opinion) for the game or the story or whatever. This includes things like magician switches and quantum-game components.
If so, and you are willing to admit to it openly on the thread, would you also be willing to direct your players to this thread?
If not, why?
If the answer to "why" in the previous question is "Because it would remove the illusion of choice I have made for them" or something similar, how would you ever reconcile that with the act of teaching a player to DM? Would, in fully teaching them, that act not destroy the very illusion so carefully crafted to trick them as a player?
Thanks for any replies! I am very intrigued by this topic and what I might learn from it!
I adapt the story to their choices. The only time I've ever used the path of illusion, is when it comes to getting them to a location. Primarily, in wilderness adventures. Those bastards love to try and go OUTSIDE THE WORLD. GRRRRRRRAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH
*upturns all the tables*
Also, I'd gladly show them this thread. Hell, I'll link one of them to it today after work. >:|
Do NOT say I'm afraid to tell my players this kind of thing.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!) *Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb. http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
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4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 8:17AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jul 10, 2012
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I've removed content from this thread. Trolling/Baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please remember to keep your posts polite and on topic an refrain from making personal remarks or attacks.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 8:22AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2010
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Fair enough moderator. My post was not very useful in general.
I think DMs are more than welcome to have their own style of play, and mine often involves reflavoring an encounter regardless of the direction my players choose. If they wander into the forest, they fight spiders. If they wander into the mtns, the spiders become goblins, etc. Nothing lost, and plenty gained.
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