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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 7:19PM
#1
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It seems odd to me that I can say "my lvl 11 Fighter can Protect as well as a lvl 20 Fighter" no matter what.
While comparison to Wizards and Clerics seems unpopular (despite that these are all "Basic" classes and should be comparable) it seems strange that some classes continue to escalate their capability to use lower level abilities (by getting higher spell slots which lower level spells can be put into for more power) while others do not.
While I appreciate that the raw damage capability of Fighters continue to increase thanks to Martial Damage Bonus it seems unfortunate that there is no option to build a "Protector" style Fighter who focuses on something other than damage.
I'd be happy to simply give feedback (as I have been doing) and wait for changes, but the recent comments in the Podcast insinuating that the Fighter is all but finished in the form we see in this playtest has me worried.
I'd like Martial Damage Dice to continue to develop after lvl 11.
It's not like "simplicity" can be an argument, as the Basic Game caps at lvl 10 and everything afterwards is optional. Surely anyone ready for the Standard Game can handle the complexity... anyone wanting to play an Arcane or Divine character concept has to (as there is still no "simple" Wizard or Cleric).
So:
Why do Martial Damage Dice stop progressing at lvl 11?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 8:36PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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So:
Why do Martial Damage Dice stop progressing at lvl 11?
Possibly because at some point it becomes a headache to roll up double fists full of dice every single round of combat. Also, it may be because D&D is notorious for the math bloating into something unwieldy at higher levels. Even still, it may be such that the class still isn't in its final form.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 8:39PM
#3
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I'm slowly developing a theory that levels 11+ will be optional. Kind of DDN's epic tier, the way epic levels were optional in 3e.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 8:42PM
#4
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2010
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Don't we get martial damage bonus after that?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 8:44PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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I think so, yes. Anybody got the PDF handy that can verify?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 8:46PM
#6
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MDB starts at level 7.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 8:55PM
#7
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Don't we get martial damage bonus after that?
No, we get it before that.
And the maths doesn't work for it to be a "replacement".
Further, it Martial Damage Bonus can't be used with Maneuvers.
If it COULD be then it might be better.
And I don't buy "but it'd be too many dice!!!"... we're STILL not getting ANYWHERE NEAR the number of dice Wizards often roll per action.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 9:01PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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I don't know about "often." Cetainly some spells have the potential for lots of dice, but not necessarily every round. However, MDD pretty much happen every round. I think that's a really important distinction when we're talking about level of nuisance. Moreover, just because you don't buy it doesn't mean it's not a valid reason. You asked for a reason...that's a good one for some people.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 9:04PM
#9
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I don't know about "often." Cetainly some spells have the potential for lots of dice, but not necessarily every round. However, MDD pretty much happen every round. I think that's a really important distinction when we're talking about level of nuisance. Moreover, just because you don't buy it doesn't mean it's not a valid reason. You asked for a reason...that's a good one for some people.
Perhaps.
But many Maneuvers don't actually roll dice, just spend them.
It isn't going to be "every round" that a Fighter actually rolls all those dice together.
So why is that an excuse for shutting down development of the class' primary abilities?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 9:10PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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For all the reasons discussed above?
I don't know what kind of answer you're looking for. There have been some potential ones given but you've rejected them out of hand. Are you sure you really want an answer or are you just raging at the wind?
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