|
4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 3:11AM
#11
|
Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2007
|
The fighter in D&D has always been a puddling mass of HP and Defenses but without any obvious threat attached, while the rogues for some reason were the murder machines.
If, by "always," you mean "since 3E"; prior to that the fighter was the obvious threat, since greatswords and longbows dealt more damage than shortswords or maces.
The damage die for the weapon does not correctly represent the threat of the character.
1d10+8 < 1d6+4+4d6 Sneak Attack
You can fool the monsters when they see you first, but they will notice how ineffective the fighter is at hurting them and instead go after the guy who actually kills them and wears pansy armor 
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 1:34PM
#12
|
Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
|
Right, in 4E you had to worry about that +4d6, and in 3E you had to worry about +9d6 from every attack. In 2E, or anything prior to that, backstabbing didn't work against anything that was aware of you - if you saw a guy in plate with a greatsword, or a guy in chain with a short sword, then the fighter was the dangerous one. Fighters were also the only ones you could benefit from exceptional Strength (anything above 18).
The idea that a rogue was some sort of offensive specialist did not exist prior to 3E.
The metagame is not the game.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 7:54PM
#13
|
Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2012
|
I do feel like all the damage reduction the fighter gets does place novice DMs into the position to just forget about attacking the fighter because it is pointless...and it is pointless. The rogue is the logical choice to attack (by meta gaming, not by any reason the monsters should know). By killing the rogue you get into a position to be able to kill the wizard next and well the fighter just isn't going to die at this point.
BUT...
From reading what you have said, the DM is simply a horrible DM. The spider thing sounds like a move just to laugh at the 26 stealth! Now if the spiders were in his notes, then okay, but if they weren't and there was no real reason for them to be there, then he need to be smacked.
And I'd serioulsy like to see the roll for the bugbears. Also the bugbears should have made a climb check, and probably shouldn't have been able to reach you in one round, and even if they did there should probably have been a climb/strength check for the bugbears each time they attacked to make sure they are still holding on (attacking a target above you while climbing a tree doesn't seem like something a bear could naturally do...at least not one with three other claws stuck in the tree.)
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 9:39PM
#14
|
Date Joined:
Feb 10, 2013
|
Alright, here's the scenario at level 8:
We have Ouran the Fighter. Due to a lucky assassination pulled off by the party rogue, he now boasts a slightly bloody set of plate armor. This is in addition to a magical shield found a few levels earlier. This gives Ouran a total of 87 hit points, 20 AC and a potential 4d6 damage reduction each round. He is not the smartest, wisest, fastest, or most charismatic fellow, but he is a living tank.
Next, we've got Neralin the rogue, boasting a some dragon leather armor and having a nice fallback defense once per round in Artful Dodger. She scouts, ambushes, picks locks, cons suckers, and steals...for the good of the team, of course. Since she cannot use her damage dice defensively, Neralin is often pumping 4d6 damage behind the deadly strikes of her dagger each round, effectively eliminating a medium to low-threat target per round. Defensively, Neralin has 56 hit points, 17 AC, and one oncoming attack that she can impose disadvantage upon.
Rounding out the group, there is the wizard, Balst. In a moment of weakness on our DM's part, as well as a session of whining by Balst's player, we were given a quest that rewarded Balst with a Cloak of Shielding at its end. Other than this, Balst has begun to come in to his own as a spell-slinging demigod that wizards inevitably become, often completely obliterating hordes of lesser enemies and crippling greter targets every round. Sometimes more, depending on if he has prepared a Haste spell that day. His defenses are 39 hit points, 16 AC with Mage Armor up, and a ubiquitous slathering of Mirror Image Spells. On top of this, he reserves the right to hug Ouran's waist in order to take advantage of his ally-defending maneuvers.
Here's the problem:
My DM has begun to pick on Neralin, almost exclusively. Since Ouran is basically immune to melee assaults, has great defense against ranged attacks, and has a bag of hitpoints just in case an enemy spellcaster shows up, our DM feels that he has no real incentive to attack him. Balst, his player being the prude that he is, NEVER goes more than five feet from the tank, and basically owns 3d6 of Ouran's damage reduction via Shield Block or whatever that maneuver is. As a result, Balst is only targetted when is seems like Team Monster has a reasonable chance of laying the beatdown on him.
That leaves Neralin. Although she has mad-decent AC for a light-armor user, and can basically secure one dodge every round, the DM has picked her out as the most viable target.
It usually goes down like this... DM: "You're scouting ahead?" N: "Yep. Neralin stays limber, lightly padding along the forest floor in a stealthy gait." *rolls* "26 total for stealth!" DM: "Cool. You notice that the floor is becoming a bit gummy as you move further in. You are ambushed by spiders. They sense anything moving on their web and bypass your stealth completely."
or maybe...
DM: "You're setting up camp for the night. Who takes first watch?" N: "Neralin immediately volunteers, noting the weariness etched in the faces of her companions. She climbs up a nearby tree, situating herself 40 feet above the ground." *a few rounds of roleplay pass by before we are ambushed* DM: "It looks like owlbears, four of them that you can see. Three of them rush up the tree at Neralin, taking advantage of her solitary position." N: "Hehe, she's really high. It's going to take a while-" DM: "They're bears. They know how to climb. All three take swings at Neralin."
So yeah. As a 4e kid, I get why DM would do this. Mechanically speaking, Neralin has the poorest defensive features when pitted against more than one opponent at a time. We all learned this when she all but soloed Talabrina Duskryn a couple levels ago in a one on one duel. So we never really encounter lone enemies any more, and foes come at Neralin in groups of no less than two at a time to burn through her one reaction and pelt her. Because Neralin is the trap-monkey, scout, and trap-diffuser, she is also constantly isolated and at risk of environmental hazards.
DM also sees Neralin as a "high priority" target, since without her the party would lose their greatest tool in bargaining, social interactions, trapsmithing and basically anything dexterity-related.
In the end, it's just...very discouraging. It feels like I'm being punished for exploring, for trying to aid my party, and for NOT hugging the defender. It's escalating, too. Neralin went to fill up a bloody waterskin in the river, and the DM threw a 5-headed Hydra at her with a Surprise Round. A Surprise Round. Five 15-23 damage attacks with advantage, just because she walked twenty feet away from the group to fill their waterskins. Should I just stop flippin' doing anything fun? Switch to a bow and walk alongside Ouran and Balst in a neat bloody little line, waiting for a fireball?
What would you do in my position? I tried asking the DM, but he's a math guy. If there is not some sort of advantage to not picking on Neralin, he sees no reason to stop. Defender-player is on my side, but he's better friends with the wizard-player and is basically wizard's personal shield. Should I just see if this stops?
Does being a useful skill-monkey pain a target on my back?
Your DM is meta-gaming. I won't go much more beyond that because everyone else seems to have covered anything else I would say.
Just politely remind your DM that, though he, the RL person, knows the situation, that doesn't mean that every creature under the sun/moon/stars knows all about it.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 14, 2013 - 4:12AM
#15
|
Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2010
|
Before anything keep in mind, if you run ahead, you are going to run right into trouble. Idk how far or how often you scout ahead, but for the most part splitting the party is not a good idea regardless of party compision of DM tendancies. Never split the party.
A sure sign of the metagaming DM is something know as rubber band AI. Do the monsters corner you can wreck you down to 3 HP, only to suddenly miss ever attack? Do the monsters get renforcements after you have expertly dispatched many foes? Does the combat always go, just the way the DM thought it would?
So your DM is trying to "win D&D" by metagaming. I know what thats like and you have my sympathies. The posts in this thread are wise, but if your DM wont stop metagaming even after you politely talk to them, turn around and metagame on your DM. Quid pro quo. Call their bluff. Ask, "is that monster acting on knowledge it could not possess?". Alternatively if the owlbear suddanly has a climb speed when it didnt before say "sweet, we're going to get bonus XP for that buffed monster!".
When the DM lays off, you will too. Make sure to save face and compliment the DM. Accept legitiment challanges when they arise. You don't want to stop gaming, you dont want to lose a friend, but you do want the DM to stop lying to you.
|
|
|
|
3 months ago ::
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:22PM
#16
|
Date Joined:
Feb 10, 2013
|
Call their bluff. Ask, "is that monster acting on knowledge it could not possess?". Alternatively if the owlbear suddanly has a climb speed when it didnt before say "sweet, we're going to get bonus XP for that buffed monster!".
Asking about the acting out of knowledge possesed is one we throw around a bit in our games as well. It's basically the most polite way to say, "are you sure you aren't full of crap right now?" As long as the DM has a decent reason, it's cool. But if they don't there is usually some deliberation and a compromise made.
I like that getting bonus XP for a buffed monster line. Never heard that one before. I like it.
|
|
|
|
3 months ago ::
Feb 21, 2013 - 8:55PM
#17
|
|
|
Hm, are you guys playing with house ruled MDD? Because by the rules the fighter gets to use him on his turn And again on his reaction, so he should be hitting almost as hard as the rogue. (Yes, this is overpowered. They're fixing metee damage next packet apparently.)
By the same token, the fighter's Protect thing takes his reaction (unless I'm very mistaken), so two monsters could just as easily wail on the wizard (since the fighter can only protect against one).
Tactically, the fighter needs some more stickiness to pull those monsters off the rogue - but all the same, the rogue should have enough tricks up his sleeve to slip out of melds when they gang up on him.
|
|
|
|
3 months ago ::
Feb 24, 2013 - 9:54PM
#18
|
Date Joined:
Feb 16, 2012
|
i haven't posted in a very long time, but this story was a bit disturbing. Your DM is completely missing the point of character class design. The tank is designed like a tank so that they can be the target. The Rogue is supposed to be a light weight support and utility class with some social skills and cunning. bottom line is if you are doing all the tanking, you should be getting the tank bonuses.
Options are Liberating
|
|
|
|
3 months ago ::
Feb 25, 2013 - 3:18AM
#19
|
Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2007
|
Have your rogue take fisrt watch then kill your team sell off their gear and retire.
|
|
|
|
3 months ago ::
Feb 25, 2013 - 7:22AM
#20
|
Date Joined:
Aug 14, 2010
|
I have encountered this in the past. To me it seems that the DM is trying to go out of his way to target the Rogue. If not then he is defiantly playing the game as DM vs Player routine. It would be funny to watch as every monster on the table ignore everything take free hits just to close in on a wounded player to kill them. In these cases the DM didn't feel like he was having fun unless he managed to kill off some players. Of course it only took a few session before a change was in order. The Rogue player may be in a tough spot now. If he complains and the other players don't see things the same way he is whiner. If they do see it, he is seen as a trouble maker by the DM. Hopefully you guys can put emotions aside and come to terms on how to make the game more enjoyable by all.
|
|
|