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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 5:08AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2010
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Very valid points, I tend to run sandbox and play in modules. The rogue has the advantage on skill die and tends toward high dex so will of course be the best  I jusr noticed that the ritual version lowers the max DC to 15. I highly disagree with that because of their preset DCs present 20 as a typical lock and as such should be the most common lock. By making the max 15 you deem the spell to lower than average. The cost ofthe ritual is time and making a cost of effeciency on top is a bit... well over the top. Dont forget that knock can shove bars off as well so can be used in siege situations. I would probably even allow knock to push away a piece of furniture propped up to block as well.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 7:09AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2011
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My personal feel on Knock as a spell is that it should NOT have a die roll in order to have it work. It should work automatically on non-magical locks. This does NOT make the Rogue less usefull or marginalize him/her! After all, the Rogue can attempt to pick locks as many times as he/she wishes and a Wizard only has a very limited number of times per day he can use it (I discount ritual usage). A 20th level Wizard can only do it 3 times a day whiile a rogue might end up openning locks 10, 15, 20 times in that same day..
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 8:41AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2010
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A rogue can not do it at all (I discount skill rolls) is an equally valid point to make. Why would you discount a part of the magic rules? Further more you have more than 3 slots of level 2 and higher.
Knock does not have a die roll, where did you get that from?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 9:27AM
#14
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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Being able to do automatically something a few times a day invalidates the Rogue's infinite ability to pick locks with a high chance of success?
The fact a Rogue can pick infinite locks only matters if they're actually picking infinite locks.
Yes, a Wizard can auto-unlock a door from a distance only a certain amount of times a day, but the real question for this is:How many times a day do you really end up picking a lock?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 9:28AM
#15
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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My personal feel on Knock as a spell is that it should NOT have a die roll in order to have it work. It should work automatically on non-magical locks. This does NOT make the Rogue less usefull or marginalize him/her! After all, the Rogue can attempt to pick locks as many times as he/she wishes and a Wizard only has a very limited number of times per day he can use it (I discount ritual usage). A 20th level Wizard can only do it 3 times a day whiile a rogue might end up openning locks 10, 15, 20 times in that same day..
But how often are you rinning into 10 locked doors in a single day? How often are you running into more than 3?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 11:01AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2012
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I always thought of knock as the type of spell the wizard would cast only when the rogue had terrible rolls or if you had to quickly get through a locked door. I never thought of it as invalidating the rogue. I'd also think of it as something the wizard could use if there was no rogue in a party. I don't see a problem with the spell. If a player is invalidating another player's key abilities then there is a problem that is more than just what the game has available....
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 2:45PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Nov 21, 2012
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I always thought of knock as the type of spell the wizard would cast only when the rogue had terrible rolls or if you had to quickly get through a locked door. I never thought of it as invalidating the rogue. I'd also think of it as something the wizard could use if there was no rogue in a party. I don't see a problem with the spell. If a player is invalidating another player's key abilities then there is a problem that is more than just what the game has available....
I agree with this. If the party has both a Wizard and a Rogue and the Wizard is going around Knocking all the locks open before the Rogue can get to them, that's a player problem, not a system problem. Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that the ritual version takes a minute to cast, requires components and is weaker than the normal spell. The Rogue can make ten attempts at Disable Device in this time without consuming any resources. The Rogue can also do it silently in most cases. No matter how good they make the spell, a party with a choice of either way should let the Rogue attempt it first because it's much more efficient.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 3:28PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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I always thought of knock as the type of spell the wizard would cast only when the rogue had terrible rolls or if you had to quickly get through a locked door. I never thought of it as invalidating the rogue. I'd also think of it as something the wizard could use if there was no rogue in a party. I don't see a problem with the spell. If a player is invalidating another player's key abilities then there is a problem that is more than just what the game has available....
Sorry, but I don't agree. The problem is with the spell, not the player. It is unreasonable to expect people not to use what they have at their disposal. What the wizard has at their disposal could, in 3e, invalidate the rogue. Thankfully, the changes they have made to DDN's version of the spell make it a useful utility spell without invalidating the rogue; that is how it should stay.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 3:35PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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I agree with this. If the party has both a Wizard and a Rogue and the Wizard is going around Knocking all the locks open before the Rogue can get to them, that's a player problem, not a system problem.
No, it is a system problem. The wizard should not be able to go around knocking all the locks open before a rogue can get to them. The thing that validates the rogue should not be the decision, on the part of the wizard, not to use their abilities to their full potential.
Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that the ritual version takes a minute to cast, requires components and is weaker than the normal spell. The Rogue can make ten attempts at Disable Device in this time without consuming any resources. The Rogue can also do it silently in most cases. No matter how good they make the spell, a party with a choice of either way should let the Rogue attempt it first because it's much more efficient.
We are not ignoring it. We think those facts all help keep this game balanced. A wizard can either spend one minute, some gold, and automatically unlock a DC 15 or lower lock as many times per day as they want. Or, the wizard can instantly unlock a DC 20 lock by using up one of its 2nd level (or higher) level spell slots. Again, let’s remember, the spell slot will only get used for knock if a situation makes it useful to use that slot for knock, as spells do not need to be memorized in specific slots anymore. Spells only need to be memorized. Then you use up whatever slot you have to cast a spell you have memorized (and lose the slot, not the memorized spell). No matter what, a wizard will make a fair amount of noise when it magically unlocks a door. It can, however, still unlock that door from a fair distance away (though not the obscene distance of 3e). The rogue, meanwhile, can use an action to unlock a door an infinite number of times per day, and it can theoretically try to open a lock of any DC, but it is (almost) never able to do so with 100% success rate.
That is fair. That is how it should be. NOTHING should be changed. That particular set of mechanics is currently working perfectly.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 4:08PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2012
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I always thought of knock as the type of spell the wizard would cast only when the rogue had terrible rolls or if you had to quickly get through a locked door. I never thought of it as invalidating the rogue. I'd also think of it as something the wizard could use if there was no rogue in a party. I don't see a problem with the spell. If a player is invalidating another player's key abilities then there is a problem that is more than just what the game has available....
I agree with this. If the party has both a Wizard and a Rogue and the Wizard is going around Knocking all the locks open before the Rogue can get to them, that's a player problem, not a system problem. Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that the ritual version takes a minute to cast, requires components and is weaker than the normal spell. The Rogue can make ten attempts at Disable Device in this time without consuming any resources. The Rogue can also do it silently in most cases. No matter how good they make the spell, a party with a choice of either way should let the Rogue attempt it first because it's much more efficient.
You should be able to get by in a party effectively but obviously not as good without a rogue. People don't seem to understand that that is what knock is for. Taking knock away would mean you HAVE to have a rogue pretty much. What do they want us to take away from the wizard? Invisibility? Its apparently unfair for the wizard to have that because the rogue should be only one to do it.
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