Bit of advice- don't take the player 'buy in' thing too seriously; while I agree it's a valid approach, sometimes its better to keep things (like this scenario) a surprise. Otherwise, the PCs can get bored if they know what'll happen at every turn.
+1
My players do certainly get bored if they know what's coming or have to give too much input. And I know many more players who have attested to the same.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!) *Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb. http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
Bit of advice- don't take the player 'buy in' thing too seriously; while I agree it's a valid approach, sometimes its better to keep things (like this scenario) a surprise. Otherwise, the PCs can get bored if they know what'll happen at every turn.
+1
My players do certainly get bored if they know what's coming or have to give too much input. And I know many more players who have attested to the same.
Agreed!
Also since "deprotagonization" is not a word I would really doubt that being framed is practically the definition for it. So...I probably wouldn't worry about it much.
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Bit of advice- don't take the player 'buy in' thing too seriously; while I agree it's a valid approach, sometimes its better to keep things (like this scenario) a surprise. Otherwise, the PCs can get bored if they know what'll happen at every turn.
+1
My players do certainly get bored if they know what's coming or have to give too much input. And I know many more players who have attested to the same.
What is the surprise in being framed for a murder? It is something that happens at the start of the session. The real surprise/goal of the adventure is in learning who actually did the murder and why the PC was framed.
The real issue with wanting to make the accusations stick in my experience does require player involvement and acceptance unless you as a DM planned ahead a long time or circumstances conspired to make it possible accidentally. After all, motivation and opportunity don't come out of the blue, and players are going to to balk if you going add them without their involvement since that touches their PCs background.
Bit of advice- don't take the player 'buy in' thing too seriously; while I agree it's a valid approach, sometimes its better to keep things (like this scenario) a surprise. Otherwise, the PCs can get bored if they know what'll happen at every turn.
+1
My players do certainly get bored if they know what's coming or have to give too much input. And I know many more players who have attested to the same.
What is the surprise in being framed for a murder? It is something that happens at the start of the session. The real surprise/goal of the adventure is in learning who actually did the murder and why the PC was framed.
The real issue with wanting to make the accusations stick in my experience does require player involvement and acceptance unless you as a DM planned ahead a long time or circumstances conspired to make it possible accidentally. After all, motivation and opportunity don't come out of the blue, and players are going to to balk if you going add them without their involvement since that touches their PCs background.
My players go into my campaigns not knowing what to expect from the story or set up. So even the very first adventure that initiates the whole thing is a surprise to them.
Getting framed has nothing to do with a player's background. It's the start of the game at hand.
Plus, I know plenty of players willing to let the DM interject a little into their characters. In my d20 modern game, I wrote my character in a manner that would actually help the DM and give him opportunities to play with it and add his own details to various aspects. And as far as I'm concerned, I do NOT want to know what those details will be until they come into play in the game.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!) *Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb. http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
My players go into my campaigns not knowing what to expect from the story or set up. So even the very first adventure that initiates the whole thing is a surprise to them.
But what is the difference of being surprised in the session or a day or two earlier when you tell them they are being framed and ask for their help in how to make it stick?
Getting framed has nothing to do with a player's background. It's the start of the game at hand.
Plus, I know plenty of players willing to let the DM interject a little into their characters. In my d20 modern game, I wrote my character in a manner that would actually help the DM and give him opportunities to play with it and add his own details to various aspects. And as far as I'm concerned, I do NOT want to know what those details will be until they come into play in the game.
Getting framed has nothing to do with background, but getting framed believable and successfully does.
First of all, you need to fabricate opportunity. So as a DM you likely have to decide what the PC did at the time of the murder. How tight is the PC's alibi? How do you as a DM determine the murder happened when that PC just happened to be alone at home (at least in the OPs example they live in the same building)? Also the way the victim was murdered must make sense whether a weapon of opportunity or something people know the PCs possess/can use. The DM likely knows this for his PC, but how would the NPC?
Secondly, you need to fabricate motive. Why would the PC kill that NPC? Since you as a DM do not tend to bother with every detail of the life of a PC, how would you as a DM know whether the NPC and PC know one another or how the treated one another? Are they enemies? Friends? Strangers? What do those living around the PC and NPC know about their relation? Have they seen or heard them argue?
Of course, this all assumes the DM want the situation to stick. If the DM does not mind the players quickly proving their innocence, then little more then unreliable eyewitnesses and weak physical evidence would be enough. After all, when a desperate NPC trying to avoid arrest tried to frame a PC, it made sense it failed quickly (and it was fun seeing the PC rant about how if the NPC was going to frame him that he at least should make him look like the competent criminal he was instead of a bumbling rookie) and when a doppleganger publically killed a known opponent of the PC ruler right next to that PC nobody sane believed the PC did it, but the rumors about that it all was an elaberate ploy to "proof" the PC was innocent, did all the damage the NPC intended it to do
So OP, why frame the PCs? What do the real murderers try to achieve? And how much did they know about the PC? What was within their capababilities to frame the PCs?
My players go into my campaigns not knowing what to expect from the story or set up. So even the very first adventure that initiates the whole thing is a surprise to them.
But what is the difference of being surprised in the session or a day or two earlier when you tell them they are being framed and ask for their help in how to make it stick?
Getting framed has nothing to do with a player's background. It's the start of the game at hand.
Plus, I know plenty of players willing to let the DM interject a little into their characters. In my d20 modern game, I wrote my character in a manner that would actually help the DM and give him opportunities to play with it and add his own details to various aspects. And as far as I'm concerned, I do NOT want to know what those details will be until they come into play in the game.
Getting framed has nothing to do with background, but getting framed believable and successfully does.
First of all, you need to fabricate opportunity. So as a DM you likely have to decide what the PC did at the time of the murder. How tight is the PC's alibi? How do you as a DM determine the murder happened when that PC just happened to be alone at home (at least in the OPs example they live in the same building)? Also the way the victim was murdered must make sense whether a weapon of opportunity or something people know the PCs possess/can use. The DM likely knows this for his PC, but how would the NPC?
Secondly, you need to fabricate motive. Why would the PC kill that NPC? Since you as a DM do not tend to bother with every detail of the life of a PC, how would you as a DM know whether the NPC and PC know one another or how the treated one another? Are they enemies? Friends? Strangers? What do those living around the PC and NPC know about their relation? Have they seen or heard them argue?
Of course, this all assumes the DM want the situation to stick. If the DM does not mind the players quickly proving their innocence, then little more then unreliable eyewitnesses and weak physical evidence would be enough. After all, when a desperate NPC trying to avoid arrest tried to frame a PC, it made sense it failed quickly (and it was fun seeing the PC rant about how if the NPC was going to frame him that he at least should make him look like the competent criminal he was instead of a bumbling rookie) and when a doppleganger publically killed a known opponent of the PC ruler right next to that PC nobody sane believed the PC did it, but the rumors about that it all was an elaberate ploy to "proof" the PC was innocent, did all the damage the NPC intended it to do
So OP, why frame the PCs? What do the real murderers try to achieve? And how much did they know about the PC? What was within their capababilities to frame the PCs?
The difference is in the timing. In the session, it's immediate. There are snap decisions that need to be made. Just as in real life, if you were suddenly framed, you'd have to make decisions on the spot. There wouldn't be much time to think. I do NOT want my players having the extra day or two to prepare for how they're going to handle that. It completely ruins everything, both IMO and theirs. So why are you so against fun?
As to getting framed believably and successfully, WRONG. You can do that in any number of ways. It does NOT, I REPEAT. IT DOES NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM RELY TOTALLY ON WORKED BACKGROUNDS BETWEEN PLAYERS AND DMS.
As to your second point, that can be handled a million ways. As I said, with the character I wrote for my game, I do not care in anyway if my DM comes up with a NPC and says I know this character. I'm going to roll with it. In the games I've been DMing for years now, my players have come up with backgrounds and I've used that material, but it does not always click or mean automatic player buy in. There's so much more to it than just "have a good background".
A good DM can make any situation stick.
Also, I think you've forgotten that sometimes, players make characters with backgrounds and then either A) have random adventures with them that do not corollate to any background information. or B)The DM can come up with motives and histories on the spot throughout the course of the game. After all, it's possible to start with characters X, Y, and Z. Then a few sessions later have them framed by NPCs A, B, and C that they met in earlier games.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!) *Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb. http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
First of all, we are talking in generics. You are taking my comments way too personal and if that is due to how I worded my posts then my appologies. That was not my intent. You know best how to run a game for your players. We are advicing the OP and all interested DMs reading this thread though and neither you nor I know what their players like or dislike. I can assure you from personal experience with a lot of players (from an admittedly limited set from the gaming community at large: people that play organized play in this case) that framing a PC for a murder is not guaranteed to lead to a fun game and can instead lead to frustration and resentment. People like surprises, but for some people being framed is like getting their favorite candy, but for others it is like getting their hated mother-in-law showing up unannounced just as they want to play their D&D game It all comes down to knowing your players, and, if you do experiment, to be ready to speed things along if the players are not having as much fun as you thought they would.
In the end, a DM can indeed make any situation stick. If not handled with care though, it can lead to frustration and angry players. Many players don't mind a DM meddling with the backgrounds of their PCs, but I have seen ample of examples on these boards were people obviously greatly disliked it especially when a DM has different assumptions than the player about the setting and the PC's personality. The DM and players are human after all. I am not saying that for (rather extreme) example stating to a player that his usually calm PC had a loud argument with the up until this game session unknown murder victim the previous day is automatically wrong. The DM knows his players best and if the DM knows that (a) the PC is known for violent arguments and (b) the player does not mind such additions, the DM can certainly pull this off. Some players do feel browbeated into accepting it as a fact when they are confronted with it at the start of a session even though they don't like it all. Before you do something like this you need to give some thought to it. It works for some, but definitely not for others (some of my players would love it, others would detest it for example).
As for setting up the framing in advance either through planned events or coicidence, sure, that is the best way to go in a generic sense, but I get the impression that the OP has already set up the situation. There is certainly no reason to assume that the murder victim knew the PCs and that the PCs somehow would have had reasons to murder the man or that they had a reputation of randomly killing people (all we know is that the PCs are criminals, but most criminals are not murderers). In short, no forshadowing or setting up the situation in advance. I might be wrong though.
To summerize the point I was trying to make for the OP (and to get the discussion back on track), to properly frame a person for a crime you need: (a) motivation (b) opportunity (c) evidence
The relative importance of each of these three depends greatly upon the setting and the resources available to the three involved groups (murderer, framed PC and authorities).
In Victorian London I would assume opportunity and evidence are fairly important. The OP already said the PCs in question are criminals, likely of low status. Since the victim lived in the same building, I am assuming the victim was of a low status as well. So likely the authorities would not care too much about solving the crime and simply stick to the most basic of investigations. Make sure there is something that at least indirectly puts the PC on the spot of the murder around the time of the murder. Witnesses are great, but some kind of physical evidence would even be better. Hide the murder weapon on a spot that the framed PC traverses regularly (preferably inside his house), but don't make it too obvious (people in general don't lay the murder weapon on the sink in plain view). Maybe steal a pair of shoes, and wear those while murdering the victim so that the bloody tracks you leave appear to be belong to the PC. Or grab a piece of clothing, let it rip on a nail or some and put that clothing back into the PC's closet. Still, considering it are poor people murdering poor people, chances are that the authorities will not look too deeply into the evidence.
In regards to opportunity, at least make sure the PC will have no clear and airtight alibi and that there is an appropiate explenation of how the victim was murdered by the PC. Granted, in a fantasy setting creatures can actually be at two spots at the same time, that still is not particularly easy to acquire
Finally, what does the NPC hope to achieve? If just to discredit or delay a person, a lot less evidence is required then when the NPC wants the PCs in jail.
First of all, we are talking in generics. You are taking my comments way too personal and if that is due to how I worded my posts then my appologies. That was not my intent. You know best how to run a game for your players. We are advicing the OP and all interested DMs reading this thread though and neither you nor I know what their players like or dislike. I can assure you from personal experience with a lot of players (from an admittedly limited set from the gaming community at large: people that play organized play in this case) that framing a PC for a murder is not guaranteed to lead to a fun game and can instead lead to frustration and resentment. People like surprises, but for some people being framed is like getting their favorite candy, but for others it is like getting their hated mother-in-law showing up unannounced just as they want to play their D&D game It all comes down to knowing your players, and, if you do experiment, to be ready to speed things along if the players are not having as much fun as you thought they would.
In the end, a DM can indeed make any situation stick. If not handled with care though, it can lead to frustration and angry players. Many players don't mind a DM meddling with the backgrounds of their PCs, but I have seen ample of examples on these boards were people obviously greatly disliked it especially when a DM has different assumptions than the player about the setting and the PC's personality. The DM and players are human after all. I am not saying that for (rather extreme) example stating to a player that his usually calm PC had a loud argument with the up until this game session unknown murder victim the previous day is automatically wrong. The DM knows his players best and if the DM knows that (a) the PC is known for violent arguments and (b) the player does not mind such additions, the DM can certainly pull this off. Some players do feel browbeated into accepting it as a fact when they are confronted with it at the start of a session even though they don't like it all. Before you do something like this you need to give some thought to it. It works for some, but definitely not for others (some of my players would love it, others would detest it for example).
As for setting up the framing in advance either through planned events or coicidence, sure, that is the best way to go in a generic sense, but I get the impression that the OP has already set up the situation. There is certainly no reason to assume that the murder victim knew the PCs and that the PCs somehow would have had reasons to murder the man or that they had a reputation of randomly killing people (all we know is that the PCs are criminals, but most criminals are not murderers). In short, no forshadowing or setting up the situation in advance. I might be wrong though.
To summerize the point I was trying to make for the OP (and to get the discussion back on track), to properly frame a person for a crime you need: (a) motivation (b) opportunity (c) evidence
The relative importance of each of these three depends greatly upon the setting and the resources available to the three involved groups (murderer, framed PC and authorities).
In Victorian London I would assume opportunity and evidence are fairly important. The OP already said the PCs in question are criminals, likely of low status. Since the victim lived in the same building, I am assuming the victim was of a low status as well. So likely the authorities would not care too much about solving the crime and simply stick to the most basic of investigations. Make sure there is something that at least indirectly puts the PC on the spot of the murder around the time of the murder. Witnesses are great, but some kind of physical evidence would even be better. Hide the murder weapon on a spot that the framed PC traverses regularly (preferably inside his house), but don't make it too obvious (people in general don't lay the murder weapon on the sink in plain view). Maybe steal a pair of shoes, and wear those while murdering the victim so that the bloody tracks you leave appear to be belong to the PC. Or grab a piece of clothing, let it rip on a nail or some and put that clothing back into the PC's closet. Still, considering it are poor people murdering poor people, chances are that the authorities will not look too deeply into the evidence.
In regards to opportunity, at least make sure the PC will have no clear and airtight alibi and that there is an appropiate explenation of how the victim was murdered by the PC. Granted, in a fantasy setting creatures can actually be at two spots at the same time, that still is not particularly easy to acquire
Finally, what does the NPC hope to achieve? If just to discredit or delay a person, a lot less evidence is required then when the NPC wants the PCs in jail.
No worries, over reacting is my thing. Some like it, some don't. Take it in jest, and I think you'll be fine.
Mostly, I'm just helping to represent a side that I feel gets overshadowed and almost completely and totally covered up by some DMs on this board. Kind of like a conspiracy.
Afterall, the OP can't make a fully informed decisions without thinking about all the factors. Ultimately, yes, he knows his players best. But on my end, I'll fight the good fight.
I'd also like to mention that there's been a lot of talk about backgrounds, but I can't see much mentioning of how information is presented in the game. This can also be vital to a mystery. Are clues presented passingly in a description of a room? Or are they hidden and the players need to explore to find them? This can have an effect on player buy-in.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!) *Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb. http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
I'd also like to mention that there's been a lot of talk about backgrounds, but I can't see much mentioning of how information is presented in the game. This can also be vital to a mystery. Are clues presented passingly in a description of a room? Or are they hidden and the players need to explore to find them? This can have an effect on player buy-in.
No argument there, but the OP asked how to frame a PC, not how to then solve what was really going on
I'd also like to mention that there's been a lot of talk about backgrounds, but I can't see much mentioning of how information is presented in the game. This can also be vital to a mystery. Are clues presented passingly in a description of a room? Or are they hidden and the players need to explore to find them? This can have an effect on player buy-in.
No argument there, but the OP asked how to frame a PC, not how to then solve what was really going on
How you present the framing can be important as well.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!) *Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb. http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
