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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 3:46AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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When do you think Paladins and Rangers should get actual spells?
1st level? Almost like 4e.
About 5th level? Like 3rd edition?
or later like eariler editions?
I personally like about 4-6th level.
It keeps them "mundane" at low level but creates that semi-magical feeling. And it lets you fiddle with spell levels when you scrunch up the range. Cure Mass Wounds level 4 spell for Pallies?
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 3:54AM
#2
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Oof. Those are extremely hard for me to answer, due to there being some unknowns. To me, most importantly, will rangers and paladins be getting martial dice and/or maneuvers? Secondly, I'd like to know what the designers have in mind for the "role" of these classes. If they are a hybrids in the purest sense of word, then they should have spells at 1st level. If they're martial primarily and magical as an afterthought, then 4th or 5th level sounds about right to me.
What I'd really like to know, is what Wizards of the Coast thinks a play character is capable of by level, which should aid in balancing classes appropriately.
Not to blow you off on the poll or anything, Orzel, but I can't accurately answer these questions for you. However, if certain martial types will never, ever get magic in their career, then I'd go with about 5th level for the hybrids, provided their martial prowess is less than, say, a fighter. I'll vote that to reflect accordingly.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 4:00AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2010
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I view the paladin as a cleric, with a specialization in fighter to protect the church. Since the spells granted to them is based on good favor with a divine force, then it makes sense to me that they would get spells sooner in their career, although limited in comparison to a cleric.
For the ranger, I view them as a rogue, with a specialization in survival, so similar to skill tricks a ranger would have survival tactics and some of these at higher level may appear to be magical. If they were to gain spells, it would be in the form of boons granted by woodland creatures, so they would not be gained until higher levels once they have proven their loyalty. I am sure an equivalent could be chosen for an urban setting, or even for settings like underground.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 4:11AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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No options between 1st and fifth level?
Perhaps at least make it 'about first level' rather than exactly first level - after all, the others are, roughly speaking, ranges.
For example - the Cleric 'once upon a time' didn't get spells until second level.
Regardless - I'd vote for 'around 1st level' - but far fewer of them at any level than a dedicated caster.
It also depends on what other abilities they have. What, aside from the ability to cast spells, sets them apart from the FIghter? If spells are a big part of that - they need to get them at 1st level. If they have a lot of cool, iconic, non-spell powers to set them apart (and hopefully they do) - they can put off spells for several levels.
What worries me more is that the spells retain relevance. They can't go the route of slow progression - because spell slot rather than caster level is what determines the usefulness/ power of spells, and if they are going to have spells, those spells need to be relevant at the charcters level. 12th level rangers casting 2nd levels spells aren't going to cut it.
I'd almost rather see the ranger, at least, get a bunch of rituals rather than load up on spells. But then again we haven't seen a druid spell list so I'm not sure what spells he will have anyway.
Carl
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 4:12AM
#5
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I'd rather both of them had spells as a possible build / variant class feature, as in "If you want to cast spells, you can trade your ____ feature for the ability to...". Then, those who prefer a more martial Ranger or Pally can have them, and those who prefer the mystic version are also happy.
For the version with spells, I'd prefer if they started casting them at 1st level. If you want a magic-feeling R or P, there should be no need to wait for 5 or more levels before you can get it.
EDIT: Yeah, forgot to add, the semi-spellcaster version of these classes should not have as many daily spells as the Cleric or Druid, but the spells should remain relevant at all levels. One of the things that I hated the most in 3e was when I had my 20th-level ranger, I simply ignored all his spells altogether, because not a single one of them reeeeally contributed to the party.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 4:17AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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@Ladybackwell
Yes it is hard to vote on this poll without knowing the vision for the classes mechanically.
Vote based on your visions of the classes.
If you see paladins as magical from day one, vote 1st level. If you see paladins as most martial with a few boons and gifts who eventually through heavy championing gains the ability to cast minor magic, choose something later. If you see rangers as a martial druid, feel free to pick 1st level. If you think 3e and 2e had it right for rangers with a fighter/rogue/druid "does what he has to do" guy, pick 5th level. If you see either with a mix of maneuvers, skill tricks, and spells (maybe one of each at level 5), pick option2. If you want purely martial or nonspellcaster rangers and paladins as a default with an option for magic, pick no spells or the level you think that spellcasting option should be available.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 6:54AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2007
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The question is nearly unanswerable but I finally went for 5th as a sorta default. In Next though you can make a good case for no spells at all.
The thing is, neither of these classes need spells if they have enough other options, and depending on what direction they go with the classes mechanically it may not make sense. Paladin obviously need divine magical power, but could easily replace spells with divine magic maneuvers, the way Monks have some maneuvers that push well into the magical range. Rangers have less need for magic all together, and depending on which direction they push the class conceptually and mechanically it may make no sense. If they push the natural environment abilities so that Rangers get a decent spread of class related non-magical powers, they can get buy with just a range of maneuvers to give them something to do in combat. If they push something closer to a natural mystic warrior concept, then some spell casting makes sense.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 7:07AM
#8
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If i want a fighter with cleric spells i'll do fighter/cleric.
Paladin should come with fresh mechanics (aura's), and not simply be a hybrid.
Same with the ranger. New stuff >>> rehash.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 7:15AM
#9
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I want the paladin and ranger to be magical but I voted no on spells.
Give the ranger magical strikes ala the 4e seeker and the paladin magical smites like the 4e paladin. Don't be lazy and give them cleric/Druid spells. We can multiclass fighter Druid or fighter cleric for a spellcaster. Make the paladin and ranger unique.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 7:26AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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I could see giving rangers and paladins access to primal and divine "maneuvers" instead of spells. Would give a much more martial flavor, which is very appropriate.
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