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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:33AM
#31
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So, upon further review, I'd be accepting of an official hybrid structure in addition to what  describes. So that the "class" you take for your first class is in fact a hybrid of two. The 4e hybrid system showed how it's possible to combine class features, I'm sure they could work something out.
Then, further multiclassing would have the sort of things that they're talking about - some benefits, but not the full class benefit. So I could do any of the following:
FTR/wiz
WIZ/ftr
FTR|WIZ/rog
Examples with numbers, of level 10 characters:
FTR10
WIZ10
FTR5/wiz5
WIZ5/ftr5
FTR|WIZ 10
FTR|WIZ 5/rog5
Nomenclature note: capitals indicate first class, but the rest of the multiclass level ordering is irrelevant.
FTR/wiz/wiz/ftr/ftr
FTR/ftr/ftr/wiz/wiz
are still both FTR3/wiz2, and indistinguishable.
Anyone have any reasons why this wouldn't work? Seems we both can be happy this way.
Only reason for it not to work is that it's alot of crap to work out. But that's what we pay WoTC for. 
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:36AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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They're doing a lot of things that are a lot of crap to work out (like replacing daily resource with encounter resources, boy that's a lot of work), why not throw another nugget on the pile? All multiclassing is firmly in the Advanced category of rules, and as they said they don't have to go with half-measures. Unless they're doing hybrids. 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:41AM
#33
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I understand why they feel the need to say that ftr1/wiz1 might be different than wiz1/ftr1, since frontloading is a genuine issue. Personally, I'd rather they change the baseline assumed level to higher than 1 and spread the expected starting abilities across the first few levels, but I doubt that approach will be adopted. Rules that allow you to create a true hybrid at 1st level may be an ideal compromise to ensure a wider range of concepts can be expressed mechanically without upsetting the balance too much.
One of the things that concerns me is the idea that their current approach seems to make MC characters strictly inferior to the 3.5 approach, even though underpowered MC combinations was as much a problem in that edition as overpowered ones. I think there needs to be a distinction between features that tend to function as purely additive as opposed to alternatives. For example, parry tends to just give you something that makes you strictly better than what you had before; you can continue on your merry way while enjoying the benefits of reduced incoming damage. On the other hand, if you were to split levels between fighter and wizard, for example, you might be in a position to use your action to make an attack or cast a spell, but because you are choosing between them it is quite possible that neither option is effective compared to what a pure fighter or pure wizard would be doing.
I think it likely that the devs are attempting to address this issue however, so we'll just have to wait and see. The MC rules are something I am quite eager to look at.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:43AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2006
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I've never been a fan of "dual-classing" - being two classes equally. I've always felt those character concepts are better addressed by an independant class with its own perks, weaknesses, and points of interest.
I've never been a fan of "level dipping". If you want to dabble in a class, there should be a better way (like feats or something similar).
I like "3/4" type multiclassing where you are three-quarters Class A and one-quarter Class B. A rogue that knows just a little bit of spellcasting; a fighter that knows just a few prayers to his god, etc.
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:48AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Nov 19, 2007
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They're doing a lot of things that are a lot of crap to work out (like replacing daily resource with encounter resources, boy that's a lot of work), why not throw another nugget on the pile?
Yes, exactly. If we can have multiple casting methods, we can have multiple multiclassing methods. Everyone's character concept is different, and will be achieved in different ways. I like both the 1/2 Ed and 3 Ed versions (never played enough 4 Ed to make a hybrid) of multiclassing, and I can see how different character concepts might want one or the other method.
In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:57AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2004
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I think some of the feat options will allow the approximation of level 1 multiclassing.
What I found in 4e was that if you convert your higher level PCs it doesn't really matter if you couldn't have built them in accordance with their canon history (my 1e PC was a level 3 human thief who changed to a level 0 wizard. In 4e I had to start as a warlock/assassin hybrid with rogue multiclass. The character history didn't change and the end result was fun to play.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:01PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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I've never been a fan of "dual-classing" - being two classes equally. I've always felt those character concepts are better addressed by an independant class with its own perks, weaknesses, and points of interest.
See, that's the thing, though. A paladin is not the same thing as a fighter|cleric. The concept of something that is a mix of two things should be allowed to exist, not forced into a class that may not have enough legs on its own.
Furthermore, creating a new class that mixes each pair of classes results in a literally infinite class list. As soon as you show me a paladin and tell me it's the better way of addressing a fighter|cleric, what happens when I want to have a fighter|paladin? If you also tell me a swordmage is the better way of addressing a fighter|wizard, what happens when I want to have a swordmage|paladin?
Some form of an even 50-50 combination of two existing classes has to be part of the multiclass discussion.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:22PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2006
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Some form of an even 50-50 combination of two existing classes has to be part of the multiclass discussion.
I'd specifically like to call attention to where I said "I've never been a fan of". It is a personal preference, and I don't expect everybody to agree with me. However
Could you please point me to a character concept (without mechanics) that is covered (mechanically) by a fighter|cleric build, and not by a paladin build, assuming a system with some flex in character creation and class power selection?
Personally I think a fighter|paladin is, thematically, a paladin that focuses more on the smashy, less on the casty. I'd like to have classes that can support that sort of flexibility within a class, myself.
That being said, I'm perfectly okay with the idea of "I want this mechanical bit -and- this mechanical bit, and here is the explanation why i think my character should have that". I just prefer "my character is this and this, what best allows me to be that within the game?".
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:26PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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A fighter who has had a broad adventuring career, but later has a religious epiphany and becomes a cleric.
This is mechanically possible by a fighter/fighter/fighter/cleric, but not mechanically possible by a paladin/paladin/paladin/paladin.
One of the strengths of the 3e multiclass system is that it allows for organic progression among classes, not just a snapshot approach. You stand a paladin next to a fighter/cleric, and the snapshot of the concept very well could be remarkably similar, but the concept of the character's adventuring career could be very different.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:35PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2006
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A fighter who has had a broad adventuring career, but later has a religious epiphany and becomes a cleric.
I think that is a big reason why I have never had a fondness. I've never been keen on that kind of character progression while the campaign is taking place.
It's like somebody that takes years to become an expert chef, and then a few months later, is also an expert carpenter, and a few months after that, is also an expert airline pilot.
I understand that some campaigns can last literally years, decades - I mean, it's entirely possible to play a campaign and then midway switch to playing your character's child to continue the several-decades-long storyline.
I've never felt I needed mechanical rules to support that kind of thing, myself - I've always figured if you're skipping through years, totally rebuilding your character mechanically isn't a bad thing to do.
I can't say this is the best or worst way to handle it, but it's what I have found works best for me and my group - thus the personal dislike for dual-classing.
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
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