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5 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 6:50PM
#81
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Ah, but in 5e, damage is accuracy. When you do a lot of damage in 5e, it's not because you hit harder (beyond your STR mod, which is a tiny fraction of your overall damage). It's because you hit someplace more vital or less armored.
Actually, damage is accuracy, and damage. It might represent hitting someplace more vital or less armored. It might also represent just straight up hitting harder and having your weapon go deeper or breaking bones or whatever. HP is an abstraction, so it follows that what "more damage" means is abstract as well.
3) advantage is not stacking, so a raging barbarian won't be looking around for tactical advantage, as he shouldn't.
Yeah, I like this aspect of raging a lot.
<Ioun> they're apparently making a MolIsCool pp
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5 months ago ::
Feb 10, 2013 - 7:27PM
#82
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2009
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In the part of my post you didn't quote, I clarified that it's both but I would still argue it's mostly precision. After all, a 20th level fighter is doing many times more damage than a first level fighter, but he is no where near many times stronger. But even if we ignore the relative importance of power and precision to accuracy and damage (or alternatively, recognize that a given attack bonus or damage roll can represent entirely one or entirely the other), the point is that "rage is about power and not precision" does not in any way imply that it's bonus should improve your damage and not your hit chances. He's hitting with such force that even when you block or when he strikes the thickest part of your armor, you use up some of that meaninglessly abstract reserve we call HP. He's laying about him with such rapid and reckless swings that even if he doesn't touch you you're using up those HP to make sure it stays that way. And when he does hit you, it may be with the force of a meteor strike but he's still lopping off fingers while the fighter is biting less deep but into your liver and the rogue is cutting shallower still but into your jugular. The whole system is so abstract that it can mean almost anything, but that also means that it doesn't have to mean any particular thing. And thus the argument that rage should boost damage instead of hit chances falls flat.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 12:11AM
#83
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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In the part of my post you didn't quote, I clarified that it's both but I would still argue it's mostly precision. After all, a 20th level fighter is doing many times more damage than a first level fighter, but he is no where near many times stronger.
Sure, and a level 20 fighter has twenty times as much HP as a level 1 fighter, but that doesn't mean he can have 20 times as many arrows hit him in the liver.
He's hitting with such force that even when you block or when he strikes the thickest part of your armor, you use up some of that meaninglessly abstract reserve we call HP. He's laying about him with such rapid and reckless swings that even if he doesn't touch you you're using up those HP to make sure it stays that way. And when he does hit you, it may be with the force of a meteor strike but he's still lopping off fingers while the fighter is biting less deep but into your liver and the rogue is cutting shallower still but into your jugular. The whole system is so abstract that it can mean almost anything, but that also means that it doesn't have to mean any particular thing. And thus the argument that rage should boost damage instead of hit chances falls flat.
I agree.
<Ioun> they're apparently making a MolIsCool pp
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5 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 2:50AM
#84
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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I dispute the "Strength equals accuracy" OR "Adavantage (always) equals accuracy" or any other simplication of the D&D to hit system into 'x equals accuracy"
That isn't how it works (imho).
The to hit roll combines too different concepts into one roll.
1) Did I hit the opponent somewhere that matters (accuracy)
and
2) Did I hit them hard enough for them to feel it through their armor.
For a normal character, the fact that they hit better with level can be seen as affecting the first part of that roll. The fact that they hit better with increased strength can be seen as affecting the second part.
For another way of looking at it - imagine an armored combatant. All parts of the body are not equally protected - some have thinner armor or even no armor. A blow aimed at one of these locations is harder to land, but if it does so, it requires less strength to make itself felt. For simpliciites sake, the system doesn't distinguish between a more aimed shot with less strength behind it versus a brute force attack which hits a more heavily armored part but makes itself felt regardless..
An earlier edition barbarian with a strengh bonus was not more accuracte - but when he hit you, because he was stonger he was more likely to be felt. He wasn't picking out the weak spots of the armor - he was powering through wherever he could make contact.
In this edition - the barbarian with advantage hasn't been made more accurate - he is just able to apply more of his strength to the attack and power through wherever hit makes contact.
Because 'to hit' includes both accuracy and penetration - still, despite the change to bounded accuracy - you can't accurately say advantage (or damage) is accuracy or penetration alone.
To return to my original point: I don't object to the rage boosting accuracy. I just think that it needs a line similar to that in the 3.x barbarian which placed limits on their ability to perform actions which require patience and precision. They are a crude weapon while raging - not a precse one.
For this reason I also think that - given the goal of quick and simple mechanics to reflect this - they should have disadvantage on Dexterity based attacks and checks.
Carl
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5 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 6:44AM
#85
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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I dispute the "Strength equals accuracy" OR "Adavantage (always) equals accuracy" or any other simplication of the D&D to hit system into 'x equals accuracy"
That isn't how it works (imho).
The to hit roll combines too different concepts into one roll.
1) Did I hit the opponent somewhere that matters (accuracy)
and
2) Did I hit them hard enough for them to feel it through their armor.
That's how I always understood the to-hit roll working as well.
The problem is that people are trying to find ways to justify counterintuitive mechanics.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 2:12PM
#86
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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In the part of my post you didn't quote, I clarified that it's both but I would still argue it's mostly precision. After all, a 20th level fighter is doing many times more damage than a first level fighter, but he is no where near many times stronger.
Sure, and a level 20 fighter has twenty times as much HP as a level 1 fighter, but that doesn't mean he can have 20 times as many arrows hit him in the liver.
This.
For example, a level 1 and level 20 Fighter, for ease of argument , let's assume 50 HP and 300 HP respectively.
Both are shot by a level 1 Kobold archer, who for ease or argument let's say he hits both and does 25 damage.
For the level 1 Fighter, he's still relatively green behind the ears and gets a arrow right into his shoulder.
For the level 20 Fighter, knowing how to handle situations like this, turns slightly and strikes the arrow with his sword to knock it off course, nicking him in the arm.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 2:41PM
#87
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I always went with Attack Roll vs AC being the Passive "unchanging" Check whereas the Damage roll vs HP being the Active "Everchanging" Check.
Damage is an abstraction of the character's adjustments for accuracy on a particular attack as well as the power behind the attack. The HP of the target represents the remainder of the target's active and diminishing ability to defend itself be it dodging, deflecting, blocking, or using its raw body to defend itself.
Rage doesn't make the barbarian more accurate, it makes the barbarian's attack more likely to be deadly. It doesn't make him hit the few bullseyes on the orc, it makes the more bullseyes. Before the chest plate was great protection. He's going right through the chestplate now.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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5 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 5:43PM
#88
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2009
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In the part of my post you didn't quote, I clarified that it's both but I would still argue it's mostly precision. After all, a 20th level fighter is doing many times more damage than a first level fighter, but he is no where near many times stronger.
Sure, and a level 20 fighter has twenty times as much HP as a level 1 fighter, but that doesn't mean he can have 20 times as many arrows hit him in the liver.
This.
For example, a level 1 and level 20 Fighter, for ease of argument , let's assume 50 HP and 300 HP respectively.
Both are shot by a level 1 Kobold archer, who for ease or argument let's say he hits both and does 25 damage.
For the level 1 Fighter, he's still relatively green behind the ears and gets a arrow right into his shoulder.
For the level 20 Fighter, knowing how to handle situations like this, turns slightly and strikes the arrow with his sword to knock it off course, nicking him in the arm.
I get that, and I agree completely. But if anything it supports my point that it is as reasonable or more for rage to improve your chance of successfully "hitting" as it is to add to the damage you deal on a successful hit. The arrow doesn't have less power behind it when when it hits the level 20 fighter, it just fails to have the same precision because he's better at dodging/blocking. Thus, damage is at least as much about accuracy as to hit, and therefore no more logical a place to put the rage bonus.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 11, 2013 - 5:52PM
#89
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As strange as it sounds, it might make more sense for attacks to "always hit" and deal damage, but for defenders to also make a d20 defense roll to see if they can turn the "hit" into a "glancing blow" that only does 1/2 or 1/4 normal damage
This way the damage roll represents how hard it is to avoid an attack, with HP representing the PCs stamina/luck/skill at avoiding taking direct hits. Every attack requires the PC to use some amount of effort to avoid getting killed, which is represented by the HP loss from an attack.
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