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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 8:36PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 30, 2013
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Melee Attack Bonus for Strength. To me, it doesn't make much sense that somebody who is stronger would have an easier time hitting an opponent. In fact, it seems almost as if it should be the opposite. Whenever I visualize really strong, powerful characters, they seem rather oafish, having considerable problems hitting anything (but doing plenty of damage when they do).
I'm getting ready to start a new campaign and was thinking of implementing this as a house rule:
For Melee Attacks, combatants use the Attack Bonus for Strength or Dexterity, whichever is lower. If the character has Weapon Finesse, they can use the higher of the two.
Thoughts?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 8:43PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2006
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I would guess that higher strength equals greater velocity. When they see an opening, the greater velocity can capitilize on an opening quicker when weilding mele weapons
Or maybe its just a simple as high strength = steadily being able to weild heavy weapons
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 8:56PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2008
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Having a higher strength doesn't necessarily mean you're better at hitting your opponent with a sword. One interpretation is that you're better at bashing through your opponent's armor and doing damage when you do hit them. Also, it's there for game balance reasons, and shouldn't be changed. Allowing folks to take Weapon Finesse to change this just turns that into a feat tax, and that's not fair to melee types.
Making characters use the lower of these two ability scores for melee attacks is just going to nerf people who play melee characters and make them useless next to non-melee characters. Casters and shooters will immediately be more effective at everything. This is a bad thing. But given that 3e THRIVES on the "fighters can't have nice things" mentality, I can see how one might think it's a good idea, even though it's unfair and unbalanced.
It's a very bad idea. Do not punish melee characters this way. It's not fair to them. Avoid, avoid, avoid.
And regardless of what you decide to do, don't arbitrarily change the rules of the game without consulting with the other players first and finding out whether they are in agreement that it would make the game more fun. You may find that other players really don't like it, and doubly so if you spring it on them after they agree to play. If the other players ARE cool with it, hey, then everything's cool.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 8:58PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2012
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First of all, may I presume that you're talking 3.5, since Weapon Finesse doesn't exist in 4e?
Second of all, I presume it was set up that way for game balance reasons. If strength doesn't get melee attack rolls, then what else is it good for besides lifting heavy loads/doing a few athletic things? Dexterity adds to AC in both 3.5 and 4e.
Also, don't think of strength as just muscle-bound power, and don't think of AC as just dodging an attack. Perhaps the low strength character hits but his blows just glance off of armor, or he would get exhausted after swinging around a weapon for more than a few seconds.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:35PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jan 30, 2013
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The Strength vs. armor argument does make some sense, but it doesn't really explain how they are able to hit unarmored (or lightly armored) opponents more easily. I wouldn't spring anything on the players without their consent. I've got a list of items I was thinking of implementing that I will run by them before we start. I haven't DM'ed since (early) 2nd edition, and the players are rather inexperienced, too. RedSiegfried - From most of the campaigns I've been in, Fighters, especially the specialty classes, have always seemed more potent than other characters, particularly at lower levels. Then again, I haven't run too many higher level campaigns.....
Anyways, if I did decide to do this, there were a couple of perks I was considering putting in to help partially negate some of the ill effects this would have on certain character types. One would be to half the range penalties for thrown weapons, up to their whatever their Strenght Modifier is. Another would be using their Stregth Modifier instead when determining a Confirmed Critical. Still brainstorming. Right now, I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the archetype of a brute, while larger than most is still Medium size, that is very strong but has trouble hitting anything. In just about every scenario I can picture, this is the rule, not the exception. In D&D, it's reversed, though!
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 7:07AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2009
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I haven't played any 3.x, but I believe the reasoning for fighters being better earlier is due to the trope "Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards". This means that, while fighters are better at early levels, at a certain point wizards overtake and shoot ahead of them. If you have mainly played lower level games you may not have encountered this. I agree, the strength modifier doesn't make sense for all weapons, mainly the smaller ones. Whilst an axe clearly needs strength to wield accurately, a dagger is far more of a dex weapon. In the homebrew system I play in/run, the weapons are differentiated into strength and dex based weapons for exactly this reason. However, in D&D the game has been balanced as it is so I'd be wary about changing something so big.
I have never played 4E. Or 3.5E. Or 3E. Or 2E. Or 1E. Or OD&D. Therefore, assume all my posts are non edition specific.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 7:12AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
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Melee Attack Bonus for Strength. To me, it doesn't make much sense that somebody who is stronger would have an easier time hitting an opponent. In fact, it seems almost as if it should be the opposite. Whenever I visualize really strong, powerful characters, they seem rather oafish, having considerable problems hitting anything (but doing plenty of damage when they do).
I'm getting ready to start a new campaign and was thinking of implementing this as a house rule:
For Melee Attacks, combatants use the Attack Bonus for Strength or Dexterity, whichever is lower. If the character has Weapon Finesse, they can use the higher of the two.
Thoughts?
Part of it is the ability to hit through armor.
The melee attacker can strike with a mace to a breast plate, and at most, he might dent it. But with his strength, he might actually break through the armor to do some damage. If you hit just the armor and leave a dent, it would count as a miss. If you break through for damage, it's a hit.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 7:16AM
#8
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Also consider that the stronger warrior will have greater ease bashing through someone's physical weapon defenses. Parrying someones weapon becomes harder when they're stronger because they strike with more force.
I agree, you would not want to house-rule that because it messes with game balance in a less than desirable way and it would require you to have to adjust every attack bonus of every monster which would also mess with their balance.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 7:24AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2011
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Hitting does not necessarily mean you "hit" the enemy. HP are abstract. Hitting mean that what you did had some effect on the enemies ability to keep fighting. Either way, a high strength character ringing blows of shields, armor, or blocking weapons is going to have more effect than a low strength character. That said, there are classes that use other abilities for MBA attacks, every melee class that is not strength based has melee powers that run off of other abilities, and often ones that can be substitued for MBA, or for charge attacks. And you have the melee training feat already, which lets you substitute any ability in for your MBA. Seems to me you're trying to fix something that's not broken. TjD
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 7:50AM
#10
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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Something to consider is the "reality" of in-game combat. A round is six seconds in duration but the combatants are not just standing around waiting for their turn to strike. During the entirety of a combat round, combatants are slashing, stabbing, dodging, parrying, etc etc etc. The "to hit roll" is only the culmination of one's ability to find an opponent's weak spot and take advantage of it. And one's Strength plays a major part in the "combat dance".
Think about sword fights in movies.
The one that springs to mind is the final battle between Robin Hood (Kevin Costner) and the Sheriff of Nottingham (Alan Rickman) in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves. Costner is wielding a longsword and Rickman a Bastard/Great Sword. During the fight you can tell there are times when each combatant is tired and tries to use finesse (aka dexterity) and it fails miserably. It is only when they put their muscles (aka strength) into their swings that they do any real damage or instill fear in the other.
On the other hand, think about the duel between Inigo and Rugen at the end of The Princess Bride. They are both using rapiers. Both of them use weapon finesse to find weak spots in their opponent's defenses and make quick jabs. In D&D mechanics terms the two stabs Rugen puts into Inigo's pectorals would be one to hit and damage roll and at the end when Inigo runs through Rugen that would be a critical hit and damage.
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