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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:42PM
#11
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I agree it's a weird quirk, but a sword & board or Two Weapon Defense user has +1 AC (5% higher chance of total mitigation, i.e. a miss), while a greatsword wielder mitigates about 1-2 dmg more per die. Not to mention, Parry is once-per-round reaction while the +1 AC works against every attack. Numbers could be crunched, but I think the AC bonus is still superior.
Two weapon defense is a feat. Not exactly free. But yes, the shield does help all the time.
Block: Reaction get cover from an attack (superior cover if using a heavy shield), anyone using a shield can use this maneuver.
Parry: Reaction get cover from an attack (doesn't require a shield). Parry would be a maneuver just like any other that the fighter could choose to learn.
Then a fighter with a shield should get even more.
Alternatively, parry could simply be:
Reaction - Enemy gains disadvantage for a melee attack against you.
A fighter with a shiled may or may not opt to learn the parry maneuver because they can already block. A fighter without a shield will opt for the parry maneuver only if they prioritize defense over offense.
Again, the fighter with a shield should get more.
So like...
Parry: Reaction - Enemy gains disadvantage for a melee attack. If you have a shield, and are still hit, you can reduce the damage by your skill die.
I don't necessarily disaggre with your suggestion, but I don't see why it is necessary. With my suggestion, the benefit the fighter gets from using a shield is +1 AC and being able to use the block maneuver. That basically means the fighter doesn't need to choose the parry maneuver meaning he is 1 maneuver up on the dual wielding or two handed fighter who also wants a defensive option.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 2:13PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2007
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Parry with 2 weapons should simply add the die of the off-hand weapon as a bonus. Which would encoourage little parying as the extra dice would have diminishing returnes)
Parry with a shield should add a die the size of a typical weapon of the size of the shield (buckler = light weapon = D6, small shield = D8, large shield = D12)
I'm realy liking the OP's suggestion, it would sound more intuitive to new players than arbitrary D6. (it would also be a sort of abstraction for aditional attacks)
I still think there would be too many dices though. A fighter should have about 4 at level 20, while a cleric should have no more than 2 (no maths here, just a gut assessment)
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 3:00PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2011
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My goal was to make something that meshes cleanly with the system we got right now. I was aiming not to mess up the Parry formula too much. Here's some numbers: Parry with MDD + Skill die (default system): L1: 1d6 + 1d4 = 3.5 + 2.5 = 6 avg mitigationL3: 2d6 + 1d6 = 7 + 3.5 = 10.5 avg mitigationL7: 4d6 + 1d8 = 14 + 4.5 = 18.5 avg mitigationL20: 6d6 + 1d12 = 21 + 6.5 = 27.5 avg mitigationParry with WDD, longsword: L1: 1d8 = 4.5 avg mitigation (more swingy) L3: 2d8 = 9 avg mitigation (more swingy) L7: 4d8 = 18 avg mitigation L20: 6d8 = 27 avg mitigation Parry with WDD, greatsword (as above, but +2 per die): L1: 6.5 avg L3: 13 avg L7: 26 avg L20: 39 avg As you can see, using a standard d8 weapon meshes pretty cleanly with the previous MDD+Skill dice formula. Bigger weapons allow more parry, smaller weapons less. Take that for what you will, but I don't think radically changing Parry to something like providing +AC cover is what needs to happen. Parry seems like a fun, random mechanic for fighters. Barbarians got damage resistance, clerics can heal themselves, some rogues can artful dodge, and fighters can parry. I still think there would be too many dices though. A fighter should have about 4 at level 20, while a cleric should have no more than 2 (no maths here, just a gut assessment)
I do kind of agree. By using 6, I think they are trying to encourage maneuver use, since the best maneuvers will only knock off 3 dice, leaving you with 3 remaining.
Someone suggested offering fighters a free die to use just for maneuvers, like a sort of phantom die: can't add it to damage, only maneuvers. Perhaps restrict that die to light weapons so a fighter could play a skirmisher-type character. That would fix the damage problem (compared to barbarians/rogues/monks) while allowing fighters to do cool things like Whirlwind Attack at much lower levels. I think a "phantom maneuver die" would be a great feature to give fighters to make sure they dominate the Maneuver scene. I don't want to add it to my first post, however, because I am not 100% convinced fighters need that help yet.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 6:50PM
#14
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2012
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Original Poster, I like your question and answer promotion of your idea and it is well organized. Some of your ideas are doable.
But let's get rid of MDD and WDD.
If we go to 5[w] again, we're going to have 4th edition again. We're going to have a lot of dice rolling and math and less role-playing. We're going to have an unplayable game at higher levels.
Let's do this.
The player-character attack rolls a 1d20+the ability modifier+a level modifier of the same importance+magic
then the situation modifier is added, either regular, the higher of all totaled advantages or disadvantages
versus the target's 10+ability modifier+level modifier+other modifiers
The first weapon damage does 1[w]+abi mod+lvl mod+other mod
All off-hand attacks and secondary attacks do 1[w] damage only
This is how two-weapon fighting would work.
A main weapon would do 1d10 and count as a main action.
An off-hand weapon would always do 1 die level lower or more than the main weapon, i.e. 1d8 and count as an off-hand action.
A two-handed weapon would do 3d6 and count as both a main action and an off-hand action.
A shield and main weapon,
the shield would add to armor class and possibily do some damage reduction/mitigation and count as an off-hand action.
the main attack weapon would do 1d10 and count as a main action.
At higher levels in the game, the player character will earn 1 more main action and 1 more off-hand/minor action and 1 more reaction.
That is 2 main actions, 2 minor actions, 2 reactions in a 6 second combat for a 25th level fighter.
This damage alone speeds up the game.
Multiple actions per turn does not slow the game one bit.
We have timed our gaming sessions.
Combat is actually a little faster because all the players have memorized their favorite combinations. And it is fun.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 6:59PM
#15
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2012
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Someone wanted to know how the healing of Clerics can be shared by other party members.
The solution is in the Parry maneuver.
Fighting classes get Parry and Protect to reduce damage.
Casters could use Levitate, Blink, Shield, Elemental Wall to reduce damage.
Clerics could get healing prayers as minor actions.
Rogues could dodge, dance, bungle and confuse attackers to reduce damage.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 8:36PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Dec 31, 2012
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Oh wow, I don't know how I didn't come across this before; and I ended up making my own house rules for this. Fantastic. Using it.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:19PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2012
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Over all I like to direction of using the weapon base damage to calculate bonus damage as opposed to a flat d6.
+1 from me.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:06PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Someone wanted to know how the healing of Clerics can be shared by other party members.
The solution is in the Parry maneuver.
Fighting classes get Parry and Protect to reduce damage.
Casters could use Levitate, Blink, Shield, Elemental Wall to reduce damage.
Clerics could get healing prayers as minor actions.
Rogues could dodge, dance, bungle and confuse attackers to reduce damage.
Yes I have been thinking flavorfully appropriate explicit defenses are awesome sauce for some time. Which is one reason parry made me do a little jig (actually the first incarnation where it also gave the fighter a resource choice more complex than 1 reaction)
A Shield that eats up the casters action economy because it needs to be restored after being penetrated and which acted somewhat like parry otherwise was an interesting idea.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:19PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2012
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Someone wanted to know how the healing of Clerics can be shared by other party members.
The solution is in the Parry maneuver.
Fighting classes get Parry and Protect to reduce damage.
Casters could use Levitate, Blink, Shield, Elemental Wall to reduce damage.
Clerics could get healing prayers as minor actions.
Rogues could dodge, dance, bungle and confuse attackers to reduce damage.
Yes I have been thinking flavorfully appropriate explicit defenses are awesome sauce for some time. Which is one reason parry made me do a little jig (actually the first incarnation where it also gave the fighter a resource choice more complex than 1 reaction)
A Shield that eats up the casters action economy because it needs to be restored after being penetrated and which acted somewhat like parry otherwise was an interesting idea.
This is a way to build in balance without sameness. Allowing survivability in many different ways is good. Healing doesn't have to be the only way to build in survivability, mitigation works too.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:10AM
#20
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2012
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Agreed. Cheers to reaction damage mitigation.
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