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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 1:04PM
#311
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Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2004
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Man, it sure would be terrible to have a handful of options from which the player could choose.
Feedback Disclaimer
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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.
No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).
(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft)A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)My 4e Projects
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 1:06PM
#312
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Man, it sure would be terrible to have a handful of options from which the player could choose.
Fool! Fighter's are supposed to be big dumb brutes for n00b players who aren't 1337 enough to play ubergodcasters.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 1:08PM
#313
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Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2007
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Fool! Fighter's are supposed to be big dumb brutes for n00b players who aren't 1337 enough to play ubergodcasters.
Boy, did you ever get that sarcasm backwards.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 1:24PM
#314
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Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2005
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The issue is that when every class ever gets more skills, more non-combat options, and more combat options than the fighter there is very little that the fighter has that represents anything other than the "big dumb fighter".
The big dumb fighter can still be represented by the fighter choosing athletics, endurance, intimidation, etc as his only skills and only choosing feats of strength related to those skills.
It's very hard to argue that with the Next playtest.
Aaron
Class: Fighter
Fighting Style: Custom
-Bull Rush
-Whirlwind Strike
-Opportunist
-Glancing Blow
-Defensive Roll
Background: Custom - Pit Fighter
Trait: Unsavory Connection - He promotes fights, trades in stolen goods, and knows most of the wrong kind of people.
-Skills: Escape Artist, Gather Rumors, Heal, Intimidate
Specialty: Custom
-Feats: Improved Initiative, Dual Wielding, Durable, Relentless
Bob
Class: Fighter
Fighting Style: Pikeman
-Shove Away
-Opportunist
-Iron Root Defense
-Lunge
-Composed Attack
Background: Soldier
Trait: Military Rank
-Skills: Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Warfare), Survival
Specialty: Polearm Master
-Feats: Polearm Training, Two Weapon Defense, Weapon Mastery, Warding Polearm
Chuck
Class: Fighter
Fighting Style: Protector
-Protect
-Composed Attack
-Disarm
-Glancing Blow
-Opportunist
Background: Knight
Trait: Knight's Station
-Skills: Knowledge (Heraldry), Knowledge (Warfare), Persuade, Ride
Specialty: Defender
-Feats: Shield Bash, Hold the Line, Combat Reflexes, Combat Superiority
Yeah, I can see that those fighters would play the exact same way and interact with the non-combat world at a disadvantage to every other class. This game is boring, fml
Too much is defined by card skills instead of the numbers. Another example of how an RPG gets it right with nummbers Level 20 Swordmaster
HP: 50
Str: 23
Skl: 26
Spd: 24
Lck: 0
Def: 13
Res: 13
Con: 9
Mov: 6
Damage: 31
Hit: 127
Evade: 46
Attack Speed: 23
Critical Rate: 13
Level 20 General
HP: 57
Str: 21
Skl: 14
Spd: 6
Lck: 0
Def: 28
Res: 15
Con: 15
Mov: 5
Damage: 26
Hit: 33
Evade: 12
Attack Speed: 6
Critical Rate: 97
Level 20 Assassin
HP: 38
Str: 4
Skl: 25
Spd: 30
Lck: 0
Def: 5
Res: 6
Con: 6
Mov: 6
Damage: 9
Hit: 55
Evade: 60
Attack Speed: 30
Critical Rate: 102.5
Layer the feats and stuff over those numbers and you have a hell of a game.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 1:29PM
#315
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2007
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this seems better for a prestige class or legacy. nothing says a fighter of 10th level would necesarily gained any notariety or prestige as a warrior to have garnerd this ability. Yet again totally makes sense for some characters but is not a common thread between all characters that have the fighter class.
I think it is. If fighters are regular joes with extensive combat training, that means most NPCs in the world are fighters. Or at the least, warriors who wouldn't know the difference. What I'm talking about isn't noteriety or prestige -- it's the warrior's code, or something like it. The idea that warriors are generous with other warriors. Duke Reginald doesn't need to think Flendar's important or mighty -- he just knows that Flendar's a warrior like himself, and Flendar's an ally. He'll help within reason and, similarly, expect help from Flendar within reason. Warrior's code.
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 1:40PM
#316
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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this seems better for a prestige class or legacy. nothing says a fighter of 10th level would necesarily gained any notariety or prestige as a warrior to have garnerd this ability. Yet again totally makes sense for some characters but is not a common thread between all characters that have the fighter class.
I think it is. If fighters are regular joes with extensive combat training, that means most NPCs in the world are fighters. Or at the least, warriors who wouldn't know the difference. What I'm talking about isn't noteriety or prestige -- it's the warrior's code, or something like it. The idea that warriors are generous with other warriors. Duke Reginald doesn't need to think Flendar's important or mighty -- he just knows that Flendar's a warrior like himself, and Flendar's an ally. He'll help within reason and, similarly, expect help from Flendar within reason. Warrior's code.
too defining of the world. Without some world wide or at least local notariety a level 20 fighter stumbling out of a hermitage in the woods unknown to the whole world wouldn't get anything from anyone other than the charitable. Doesn't matter if he is a warrior. The only thing thats going to get him is locked up until they can figure out who this crazy strong murderhobo in their town is, and why he is in the town. Think of it like Rambo what happened when he first rolled into town? He was a very skilled warrior the other wariors in town didn't give him ****.
Sounds like a cool ability for some kind of prestige, but not for a fighter because it doesn't fit for every fighter one might make.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 1:46PM
#317
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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this seems better for a prestige class or legacy. nothing says a fighter of 10th level would necesarily gained any notariety or prestige as a warrior to have garnerd this ability. Yet again totally makes sense for some characters but is not a common thread between all characters that have the fighter class.
I think it is. If fighters are regular joes with extensive combat training, that means most NPCs in the world are fighters. Or at the least, warriors who wouldn't know the difference. What I'm talking about isn't noteriety or prestige -- it's the warrior's code, or something like it. The idea that warriors are generous with other warriors. Duke Reginald doesn't need to think Flendar's important or mighty -- he just knows that Flendar's a warrior like himself, and Flendar's an ally. He'll help within reason and, similarly, expect help from Flendar within reason. Warrior's code.
Well, that's interesting.
I agree with Sleeps that this particular role is a bit narrow. Not all fighters have to follow a warrior's code. But if fighters are to be defined broadly (and they seem to be the most broad) then it seems fair that we let fighters distinguish themselves fro one another.
All of the other classes appear to be "outside" the norm. Wizard weidl fantastic power, clerics speak with gods and godlings, barbarians have anger management issues, rogues skirt the edge of society. But fighters are society. They reflect it.
So why not give fighters something to reflect specifically where in society they fit. We can call it "station", and since the whole idea is to figure out where fighters fit, it naturally means it should affect their interaction with NPCs.
Stations could include Hoi Polloi, Bourgeoisie, Noblesse, and Nouveau Riche. The benefit would be a bonus to dealing with members of your station and perhaps penalties when trying to interact with people too far above or below such station.
Which isn't to say other classes can't be common folk, or nobles, or the like. But for them it's more of an effort because their chosen class necessarily requires them to separate from society at large. So they have to make an effort in the form of a Background. The very act of becoming an adventuring class other than fighter necessarily separates you from the social class into which you were born. But fighters are common and understood and, therefore, accepted.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 1:50PM
#318
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I think if we moved away from the "skill die" in general we could help close the gap as well. If the game is supposed to be based around ability checks, make it truly based around ability checks. A high level rogue with a trained skill is rolling at around +9 (d12 with advantage) higher than the untrained fighter. That means tasks the rogue succeeds at routinely the fighter probably could only succeed at if he rolls a nat 20. I think giving "advantage" for skill training would make more sense overall. Skill training would increase the chances of success without artificially inflating DCs to the point where the haves and have nots are on separate ends of the spectrum. A skill mastery feat could grant an extra d20 (3 total). I go into this idea more < here>
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 1:57PM
#319
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Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2004
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I think giving "advantage" for skill training would make more sense overall.
It's such an obvious thing to do, I wonder if they've tried it (I assume they have - why would they not?), and I'm curious why they've dismissed it.
But I'll move over to your thread on the topic.
Feedback Disclaimer
Show
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.
No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).
(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft)A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)My 4e Projects
Show
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 2:07PM
#320
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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I think if we moved away from the "skill die" in general we could help close the gap as well. If the game is supposed to be based around ability checks, make it truly based around ability checks. A high level rogue with a trained skill is rolling at around +9 (d12 with advantage) higher than the untrained fighter. That means tasks the rogue succeeds at routinely the fighter probably could only succeed at if he rolls a nat 20.
I think giving "advantage" for skill training would make more sense overall. Skill training would increase the chances of success without artificially inflating DCs to the point where the haves and have nots are on separate ends of the spectrum. A skill mastery feat could grant an extra d20 (3 total).
I go into this idea more <here>
see this aproaches the problem correctly
I say first and foremost lower all DC's by 2 (or maybe even 3), as in easy DC's go from 10 to 8 (or 7) make it something you will rarely if ever fail given an even remotely decent ability score. Moderate goes from 15 to 13 (or 12), Hard goes from 20 to 18 (or 17), and so on ending with nearly impossible at 33 (or 32). It looks weird and round numbers on the 5s look better but the dice rolls themselves aren't supportive of those numbers.
A 16 in the associated stat should be able to accomplish most things of moderate difficulty on a 50% chance someone with a 20 in the associated stat shouldn't be hoping to accomplish things of moderate difficulty.
I'd be fine with shrinking DCs and giving advantage, but it seems like using the advantage mechanic far to much, and then what would we do for skill mastery. By the way Skill mastery, while something I think the rogue should have it needs to be moved off first level, it needs to be moved to later in the leveling cycle.
I say shrink the DCs via my method and make the skill die smaller stay on the d4 for longer and max out with the d10 or possibly even the d8 with the d8 and my shrunk DC's up top it make the nearly impossible...nearly impossible literally you need a 20 in stat, and max on both dice to hit nearly impossible DC's. going with the D10 makes it a little more probable but the d10 really shouldn't come about until like level 16 or 17.
Another revision instead of giving rogues the advantage on the skill die trick make skill mastery increase the die size by one step if at your level you would normally be using a d6 use a d8 instead.
I mean I plan on doing this when I play, at least the DC shrinking, but really for the system to work as is intended, or at least the intentions they tell us, you have to do this.
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