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Feb 8, 2013 -- 3:34PM, xladyfayre wrote:

The fighter needs a defining feature that is more than just swinging a sword. In my opinion it should be based on the style. So a duelist's defining feature should allow for abilities that pertain to a duelist. In my opinion said ability should progress or better ones should be gained at later levels. So maybe the duelist should start off with a speed bonus. The features should focus on mobility during battle. In my opinion the marksman should gain abilities that enhance accuracy or perhaps luck. Maybe one feature at a decent level they should gain a reroll on a miss. The protectior should gain an ability that allows the player to step in and take damage for an ally as an ability at a suitable level. The slayer should gain an initiative bonus and the veteran should gain a pool in which they can exert an amount of energy for a period of time. In short, I think the styles need more to them than a list of suggestions. There should be a list of suggestions and some concrete defining features to be gained for choosing that style. What is so special about this style? Why should I take Archer instead of the Ranger when it makes its appearance? 

The Ranger focuses on a single quarry, a hunter or a tracker. They actually should gain surprise attacks. Like the first attack against an enemy should get them double damage or something like that. Carefully taking aim and then hitting a vital spot. So 1 shot per round, but with a greater chance for extra damage maybe double their critical threat range or something. Likes to wear light armor like leather, padded, studded leather for flexibility and allows them to surprise their quarry. No tell-tell jingle of chain armor to indicate an attack.

The Fighter (Archer) should be about speed of shooting a bow or crossbow. They take a move action to stick their arrows into the ground and then rapidly fire them at targets all within a few seconds. They also can hit multiple targets at once, one with each arrow. They can also wear better armor chain or splint or whatever. They don't care if the enemy knows they are there. They are going to send a volley of arrows that can't be dodged or blocked so it doesn't matter...

Feb 8, 2013 -- 3:53PM, SleepsInTraffic wrote:

Feb 8, 2013 -- 2:26PM, Lawolf wrote:

It is funny you mention paragon's of humanity sleeps.  Every high level fighter from myth, fantasy literature, and media has been depicted as a paragon of humanity. They have all been portrayed as more cunning than a regular warrior, stronger faster and tougher than a regular warrior, and alltogether more capable. The fighter universal skill die would actually represent this. Just some interesting food for thought. Although, it might be more suitable mechanic for a "Legend" or "Hero" class simple because "fighter's can't have nice things".

Except for the Little Jons, the Lan Mandragorans, the Gimlis, the Tam al'Thors, the Charity Carpenters and the Karrin Murphys.  They in fact aren't paragons of mortality.  Yes many fighters of legend are paragons of mortality unfortunately not all of them are paragons of mortality.  Not all fighters are paragons of mortality, especially not in every concievable way (Hercules may have been a paragon of human physicality but if I'm not mistaken his mental stats weren't the best) meaning you can't make that a broadband class feature, you especially can't make that a level 1 class feature because it is a level 20 class feature for another class.  I have no problem with this being something you can lay on any character (because a paragon of mortality can in fact be of any class).  However making it part of fighter.

Umm the fighters you listed aren't high level. Gimly is usually places somewhere between 3-5 for example. The fighter's you listed aren't yet at the point where they are paragon's of humanity. Such low level fighter's are still shown to be a cut above regular warriors though. A d4 or d6 universal skill die works well for these lower level fighters though.

And yes Samson, Hercules, etc do not have the best mental stats, but time and time again such heroes are shown to overcome challenges through cunning as well as physical might. You know what represents increased cunning but not necessarily a high Intelligence or Wisdom? You guessed it, getting to roll a skill die with Int or Wisdom checks.

Feb 8, 2013 -- 4:13PM, SleepsInTraffic wrote:

Feb 8, 2013 -- 3:20PM, lokiare wrote:

Feb 8, 2013 -- 12:40PM, SleepsInTraffic wrote:

Feb 8, 2013 -- 12:26PM, Lawolf wrote:

Feb 8, 2013 -- 12:15PM, SleepsInTraffic wrote:

Feb 8, 2013 -- 11:45AM, Lawolf wrote:

The rogue can participate on roughly 85% of non combat challenges with about an 65-95% chance of success on any given task

this is false.  unless your DM is favoring the rogues abilities.

Umm, with 8 trained skills you can get: steath, perception, persuasion, two knowledge skills (arcana, nature, and religion tend to come up the most), climb, thievery, and one more skills of your choice.  That pretty much covers 85% of the challenges a typical adventurer faces. It has nothing to do with DM preference, those are simply the tasks that come up the most.

I need you guys to help build this house...boom that rogue is almost useless unless he is a strength build rogue.  Just because I have to think of an out of the box adventure to sculpt the challenges dopesn't justify 'make the fighter trained in everything'.  Even worse not all rogues take those skills, sure the power gamer does, but people actually trying to build a role playing archetype may have other skills.  I have two rogues in my current playtest party both of them have crafting or profession skills.  Both of them are artisans.

You are also forgetting Ace in the Hole which applies to any skill check or attack roll...

4 checks a day at top level...yeah. and that's kinda OP. but at top level so isn't the barbarians unlimited rage, and so isn't the fact that the monk becomes a demi god just then by going to 20 in every stat.  The ability I argue against is making you have that demigodhood at level 10. even worse it gives you no character.  You have no deffinition of a character no specialities nothing that really defines your character

I instead say make the fighting styles somewhat equatable with rogue schemes

Each Fighting style gives:
4 specialized weapons
specialization:
select a maneuver for each weapon.  While wielding that weapon you have access to that maneuver.For example: quarterstaff specialization(whirlwind attack).  meaning you selected whirwind attack to be useable with quarterstaffs.
suggest 5 other maneuvers but leave all 5 slots optional.
offer 3 to 4 skills or skill trick esqu traits 

Some more uniquer variations on that formula but basically that.  maybe some fighting styles grab up feats instead of a specialized weapon or two. 

gives you a nice balanced allotment of stuff and further defines your character rather than just saying here you go have everything and nothing truly defining.

Exactly.