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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 8:12AM
#71
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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D&D is an evolving concept.
Pokemon
I
I win!
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 8:22AM
#72
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2004
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D&D is an evolving concept.
Pokemon
I
I win!
"They are making it clear that when modern design and common sense come into conflict with tradition, tradition wins." - thecasualoblivion
"Vancian isn't broken, you just have to set your game to the wizard's clock!" - Oxybe
"In many ways, making a new edition of D&D is alot like trying to sell a car to the Amish." - Dwarfslayer
"Encounters are the heart of the AD&D game" - PHB AD&D 2nd edition.
"you shouldn't even bother trying to become like me." - Gary Gygax (Elfcrusher confirmed)
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'"
- Gary Gygax
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 8:46AM
#73
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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i am one of those old school gamers, my first book i ever was able to read thru was my copy of 1st edition dungeon masters guide. every now and then i wander to my local game store to see how things are and to look at some new product for purchace. i have never played 3.5 or 4th edition i read thru 3rd when it launched but i never got into playing it. when a group of "old School" gamers get together they joke and talk about how this character died in an epic explosion or how that dungeon was fun to play. i have seen newer players in conventions and players and i notice that instead of talking like that their time is spent talking about stats, bonuses, skill, powers and things like why did you take that power you should take this one to dps more ect. now i know some will say im making generalizations about people and to some extent its true. the old rules always put the power in the dms hands even in spell descriptions every rule was secondary to the role play the modern game is dominated with min/maxing and spoonfeeding players math when for the life of me they complain about THACO which at 5 i was able to mostly memorize in 1981. some post that the game should cater to every gameplay style or every class should be balanced ect and my favorite is that fighters in old editions were boring. you will hardly ever find someone that played those older editions that will complain about these thing due to the fact that as a human we have the ability to make good of even a bad situation. you can roleplay and do amazing things without millions of micro stats spoon fed to you. i also think that lazy dming has contributed to this as well where they will let players dictate things that should be stopped cold. anyway thats my opinon on what i have witnessed and any discussion on this is appreciated  .
Valid points. But why would you object to a balanced rule set that also has a multitude of options? Different people play D&D for different reasons. If you notice the 1st edition books have MANY stats. More stats on weapons then any edition since for example. Now what you did was you played a house ruled version of 1st and have fond memories of it. Other people played with all those stats in 1st so the game could be more tactical. Or they played with more henchmen then you.
What makes it hard to have these discussions of the past rule sets is that very few people played the ruleset RAW. They played houseruled. Well, you can do the same in any edition. Some people want to have a tighter more balanced ruleset because they like to have more difficult, but fair tactical combats or whatever. The point being, D&D will be and has always been houseruled to suit the tastes of the DM (players have always been tertiary in the past to DM fiat).
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 8:52AM
#74
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D&D is an evolving concept.
Pokemon
I
No you dont! I win!
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire Concerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 8:53AM
#75
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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D&D is an evolving concept.
Pokemon
I
No you dont! I win!
Damn you, Kalex!!! 
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 8:56AM
#76
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 8:59AM
#77
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Damn you, Kalex!!!
I get that a lot!
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster ExtraordinaireConcerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:19AM
#78
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2006
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every now and then i wander to my local game store to see how things are and to look at some new product for purchace. i have never played 3.5 or 4th edition i read thru 3rd when it launched but i never got into playing it.
So you've never played a particular game but generalize the player-base of that game based on interesting elements of a game you've never played?
when a group of "old School" gamers get together they joke and talk about how this character died in an epic explosion or how that dungeon was fun to play. i have seen newer players in conventions and players and i notice that instead of talking like that their time is spent talking about stats, bonuses, skill, powers and things like why did you take that power you should take this one to dps more ect.
I'm going to make two assumptions here:
1). things like stats, bonuses, skills, powers (or feats), and other character-based mechanics are far more important to players when it comes to 3E and 4E because they're strong elements of the game. People didn't talk about feats and skills in 1E because there were none. People didn't talk about Stats because you rolled what you got and that was about it (where as now, we have Point-Buy and Stat Arrays). People didn't talk about Powers because the only thing out there were Spells (and, honestly, how often did you talk about different spells in pre-3E days?). People talk about these elements because it's one thing that Players have control over (for the most part).
2). That, after hearing about what version of the game they were discussing, probably didn't stay around long enougth or bring up a topic of fun adventures that they had.
the old rules always put the power in the dms hands even in spell descriptions every rule was secondary to the role play.
Considering that you've never played 3E or 4E (by your own admission), how can you possibly know if this is true now? Also, how often were spells debated back in the old days? Were huge swaths of spells banned from tables or did most DMs just let them go and allow players to take them if they were found or created?
the modern game is dominated with min/maxing and spoonfeeding players math when for the life of me they complain about THACO which at 5 i was able to mostly memorize in 1981.
Again, how can you possibly know this without ever even trying the game? Further, what's wrong with learning and using math? It seriously helped me get faster with it. Also, the mechanics of THAC0 were sorta wonky (the whole -20 thing was just really dumb IMO).
some post that the game should cater to every gameplay style or every class should be balanced ect and my favorite is that fighters in old editions were boring. you will hardly ever find someone that played those older editions that will complain about these thing due to the fact that as a human we have the ability to make good of even a bad situation.
Sorry, but sometimes the games mechanically hinders any attempt to make good of a bad situation. Case in point, I had a 3E character roll 9, 9, 11, 14, 7, 10 for their stats. I ended up making a wizard and dying after the first battle because a Kobold threw a rock and hit me. This wasn't epic. This wasn't fun. This wasn't a great roleplaying opportinity. I'd get more into class balance, but I think the majority of it would just be ignored.
you can roleplay and do amazing things without millions of micro stats spoon fed to you.
Heh, yea I remember those days. ME: "Hey DM, I'm gonna Charge this troll and send him over the cliff." DM: "Um, no. He's a troll, he's much larger than you and stronger than you. Any chance at trying such an attempt would only be met with folly. I'm saying this because I don't want to see your character killed." ....gee thanks. WIZARD: "Hey DM, I cast battering ram and send the Troll over the cliff." DM: "Oh, ok he falls off the cliff." ME: "Seriously, WTF?" DM: "Dude, magic."
i also think that lazy dming has contributed to this as well where they will let players dictate things that should be stopped cold.
Care to have an example with that theory? What sorts of things that player's dictate should be stopped?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:39AM
#79
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2007
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To the OP and others who claim that D&D has "lost its way":
I began with D&D in 1979, so I have as much claim to "old school" as most of the people who claim to be "old school." I have played D&D as it has grown and changed and evolved over the years, and I have enjoyed most of it, changes and all. It has not been my experience that roleplaying and great stories have been lost to the number crunchers. Great stories and great roleplaying hinges on the players and the DM being on the same page in regards to tone and pacing, independant of rules and editions.
I would have been upset to have bought a "new edition" of D&D, only to find minor rules changes (or worse, simple repackaging of the same rules). If you are going to advance the edition numbers, you had better be advancing the game at the same time. Up to this point, I have been happy with the advancements, so much so that 4E has become my favorite edition. My fears about Next is that too much time and effort is being spent looking backwards so that very little time and effort will be spent going forward.
I put it to the OP and other old schoolers that D&D did not lose its way, it simply left them behind. D&D was going to grow and evolve and change with or without them, it had to in order to justify continued publication. Along that path, the OP and others found a comfortable place, and decided to settle there. There is nothing wrong with that. I am excited, and a little frightened, about where D&D could be headed next. When we get there, I may decide that I don't like it, go back to my comfortable place and see if the inevitible 6th edition is more to my liking in a few years. But I won't fault D&D for trying to advance, even if it goes in a direction I don't care to go.
I guess what I'm trying to say is for every person who thinks D&D has lost its way, there is another who is happy that D&D found them where it did.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:47AM
#80
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2007
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i am one of those old school gamers, my first book i ever was able to read thru was my copy of 1st edition dungeon masters guide. every now and then i wander to my local game store to see how things are and to look at some new product for purchace. i have never played 3.5 or 4th edition i read thru 3rd when it launched but i never got into playing it. when a group of "old School" gamers get together they joke and talk about how this character died in an epic explosion or how that dungeon was fun to play. i have seen newer players in conventions and players and i notice that instead of talking like that their time is spent talking about stats, bonuses, skill, powers and things like why did you take that power you should take this one to dps more ect. now i know some will say im making generalizations about people and to some extent its true. the old rules always put the power in the dms hands even in spell descriptions every rule was secondary to the role play the modern game is dominated with min/maxing and spoonfeeding players math when for the life of me they complain about THACO which at 5 i was able to mostly memorize in 1981. some post that the game should cater to every gameplay style or every class should be balanced ect and my favorite is that fighters in old editions were boring. you will hardly ever find someone that played those older editions that will complain about these thing due to the fact that as a human we have the ability to make good of even a bad situation. you can roleplay and do amazing things without millions of micro stats spoon fed to you. i also think that lazy dming has contributed to this as well where they will let players dictate things that should be stopped cold. anyway thats my opinon on what i have witnessed and any discussion on this is appreciated .
Wel we are a group that have played many game systems from ADnD 2nd to 4th pathfinger world of darkness.
But i have noticed one thing we seem to enjoy a system more before it gets to bulky.
when 3.0 came out we loved it but as the edition got bigger our liking for the edition became less, and we switched to another system.
when 3.5 came out we loved it till we reached about the same point in bulk as with 3.0 and want to another game system.
we loved 4th edition when it was released but it grew bulky so when essentials came out we decided to play essentials only and loved it.
Recently we also tried pathfinder using only the pathfinder SRD and loving it.
We talked about it trying to find out wat caused this in our group.
And it seems to have to do with general knowlage of the game system, shortly after release most players know all the rules and abilities from all classes.
When the system gets bulky most players no longer know all the rules and options usualy only focusing on what efects their favorite class.
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