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i am one of those old school gamers, my first book i ever was able to read thru was my copy of 1st edition dungeon masters guide. every now and then i wander to my local game store to see how things are and to look at some new product for purchace. i have never played 3.5 or 4th edition i read thru 3rd when it launched but i never got into playing it. when a group of "old School" gamers get together they joke and talk about how this character died in an epic explosion or how that dungeon was fun to play. i have seen newer players in conventions and players and i notice that instead of talking like that their time is spent talking about stats, bonuses, skill, powers and things like why did you take that power you should take this one to dps more ect. now i know some will say im making generalizations about people and to some extent its true. the old rules always put the power in the dms hands even in spell descriptions every rule was secondary to the role play the modern game is dominated with min/maxing and spoonfeeding players math when for the life of me they complain about THACO which at 5 i was able to mostly memorize in 1981. some post that the game should cater to every gameplay style or every class should be balanced ect and my favorite is that fighters in old editions were boring. you will hardly ever find someone that played those older editions that will complain about these thing due to the fact that as a human we have the ability to make good of even a bad situation. you can roleplay and do amazing things without millions of micro stats spoon fed to you. i also think that lazy dming has contributed to this as well where they will let players dictate things that should be stopped cold. anyway thats my opinon on what i have witnessed and any discussion on this is appreciated .

Jan 29, 2013 -- 9:37PM, justmike1976 wrote:

i am one of those old school gamers, my first book i ever was able to read thru was my copy of 1st edition dungeon masters guide. every now and then i wander to my local game store to see how things are and to look at some new product for purchace. i have never played 3.5 or 4th edition i read thru 3rd when it launched but i never got into playing it. when a group of "old School" gamers get together they joke and talk about how this character died in an epic explosion or how that dungeon was fun to play. i have seen newer players in conventions and players and i notice that instead of talking like that their time is spent talking about stats, bonuses, skill, powers and things like why did you take that power you should take this one to dps more ect. now i know some will say im making generalizations about people and to some extent its true. the old rules always put the power in the dms hands even in spell descriptions every rule was secondary to the role play the modern game is dominated with min/maxing and spoonfeeding players math when for the life of me they complain about THACO which at 5 i was able to mostly memorize in 1981. some post that the game should cater to every gameplay style or every class should be balanced ect and my favorite is that fighters in old editions were boring. you will hardly ever find someone that played those older editions that will complain about these thing due to the fact that as a human we have the ability to make good of even a bad situation. you can roleplay and do amazing things without millions of micro stats spoon fed to you. i also think that lazy dming has contributed to this as well where they will let players dictate things that should be stopped cold. anyway thats my opinon on what i have witnessed and any discussion on this is appreciated .

That is my exact experience.  I don't hear people talking about the adventure, I hear them talking about builds, feats, stats, etc.  I like adventures where you outwit your enemy by cleaver use of the setting and things that have transpired in the adventure.  I dislike roleplaying being reduced to skill checks.  It is definitely a different world with different tastes.  My favorite character was killed by a house in Ravenloft and is still in the picture that hangs in the wall their.

Jan 29, 2013 -- 9:47PM, arnwolf666 wrote:

Jan 29, 2013 -- 9:37PM, justmike1976 wrote:

i am one of those old school gamers, my first book i ever was able to read thru was my copy of 1st edition dungeon masters guide. every now and then i wander to my local game store to see how things are and to look at some new product for purchace. i have never played 3.5 or 4th edition i read thru 3rd when it launched but i never got into playing it. when a group of "old School" gamers get together they joke and talk about how this character died in an epic explosion or how that dungeon was fun to play. i have seen newer players in conventions and players and i notice that instead of talking like that their time is spent talking about stats, bonuses, skill, powers and things like why did you take that power you should take this one to dps more ect. now i know some will say im making generalizations about people and to some extent its true. the old rules always put the power in the dms hands even in spell descriptions every rule was secondary to the role play the modern game is dominated with min/maxing and spoonfeeding players math when for the life of me they complain about THACO which at 5 i was able to mostly memorize in 1981. some post that the game should cater to every gameplay style or every class should be balanced ect and my favorite is that fighters in old editions were boring. you will hardly ever find someone that played those older editions that will complain about these thing due to the fact that as a human we have the ability to make good of even a bad situation. you can roleplay and do amazing things without millions of micro stats spoon fed to you. i also think that lazy dming has contributed to this as well where they will let players dictate things that should be stopped cold. anyway thats my opinon on what i have witnessed and any discussion on this is appreciated .

That is my exact experience.  I don't hear people talking about the adventure, I hear them talking about builds, feats, stats, etc.  I like adventures where you outwit your enemy by cleaver use of the setting and things that have transpired in the adventure.  I dislike roleplaying being reduced to skill checks.  It is definitely a different world with different tastes.  My favorite character was killed by a house in Ravenloft and is still in the picture that hangs in the wall their.

My RP group is basically 38+, with the oldest member being 60, and we talk about events, triumphs and epic stories, whereas a friend of mine who plays with a group of early 20's people is constantly talking about builds, but not to the total exclusion of character. Still, there's definitely a gulf there, and simply having more options in recent systems is no doubt at the heart of it.

and i agree with what you said about the options i think most of the blame for the way dnd has lost its way is with the creators. they made the enviroment what it is by what they printed.