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Jan 31, 2013 -- 6:59AM, lawrencehoy wrote:

  I've said, and I'll say it again, the underlying mechanics feel similar

Ive said it before I will say it again.. goo...all games have a limited number of actual mechanics they can use its a question of practicality and excessive complexity.
 

Jan 31, 2013 -- 9:25AM, lawrencehoy wrote:

Jan 31, 2013 -- 7:37AM, Mand12 wrote:

What you said:

Jan 30, 2013 -- 8:38PM, lawrencehoy wrote:

The fact is that all classes in 4th Edition were built with an identical mechanic structure and, aside from the fluff (which was less connected to the mechanics than in any other edition), the powers were very similar between the classes.

What I am saying:

Some of the powers are similar.  To say "the powers were very similar between the classes" is overstating the similarity, and too superficial a treatment of the very significant variation in powers beetween the classes.

When broken down to the bare numbers, and the association with some kind of condition that many had, the powers aren't very different.

You can play them very differently, ignoring the fact that the numbers/conditions are similar (I do it myself, in an effort to overlook the similarities among powers, so that I can enjoy playing); but that doesn't change the fact that each power has a similar stat block. In fact, reliance on that format, forced them all to be that much more similar. I know it was a way of maintaining balance and it was very good for organization; but the end result is a form of homogeny.

Again though there is a huge difference between looks the same and plays the same.  I remember someone once put every 3e class into a 4e format. I mean all spells were easy, but even daily rogue, barbarian, and monk abilities (and some feats in 3e) could be put in the same format as 4e.

The real issue in 3e was that things looked different but played the same.

Ex. On my turn I move up to an enemy, probably with a charge attack. If I am adjacent I full attack the enemy. What class am I? (Answer: Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Paladin, Gish, or any other non-ToB melee class).

On my turn I move and cast a single spell that kills or disables the majority of my enemies? What class am I? (Answer: cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, or any full caster).

In 4e you  had things like this: I charge up to an enemy smacking them hard and if the try to reteat from me I smack them again and hinder their escape. What class am I? (Answer: Fighter)
I tumble past some mooks and leap from the shadows stabing the enemy caster in the back dropping him with a single blow. What class am I? (Answer: rogue)
I mark a foe making him less likely to hit my allies and attack his friend 50 feet away. If he strikes one of my allies I teleport back to him and smack him good. What class am I? (Answer: Swordmage)

Classes look the same at a glance in 4e and yes, a lot could have been done to change that (use stamina for martial PCs instead of encounter powers, have wizards not have encounter powers but have extra daily spells instead, etc). But 4e was the first version of D&D where classes actually played differently.

Jan 31, 2013 -- 9:35AM, lawrencehoy wrote:

Jan 31, 2013 -- 7:38AM, Garthanos wrote:

Generally speaking I only allow swapping/changing damage types when you "take" a power, not every use (a situational improvisation has accomplished that like when a cleave involved knocking an oil lamp from one subject to threaten his ally its using an environal element not the class feature).. but generally speaking its definitely a distinction. Changing a type may "sometimes" not have mechanical impact but even changing it to fire for instance enables things like starting the canopy of the pirates ships on fire but you cant count on it for instance it rained earlier when they were out to sea.

A conjured summoned ally who you control has no real martial analog and has very distinct mechanical impact... not sure what you are thinking.

To create ranged area effects a martial type might manage using alchemical devices, ie not a class ability. To create ground control area effects you could I dont know throw down caltrops.. there isnt any ability that specifically does it and it doesnt require anything sustained... none do.

I could see a rage being defined in a way that it prevented you from doing minor actions while you were in that mental state (but I dont think it has been) that woud be close to having a maintenance cost martial ability and the barbarian is a bit of a spirit channeler and not even strictly martial

You have to look at the game from outer space to think the classes abilities are the same role distinctions make them actually different in competancies in 4e...Should we play a game of  which of these two full attack spammers is the barbarian and which is the fighter in 3e?  its all a bald faced contrivance.

Again, I'm not saying that.

 
 ... you hide it under touchie feely phraseology and ignore the actually distinct competancies and approaches of the classes you are standing on mars...saying all people "feel" like clones they are all round.