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When we look at this ...
(a) 15, 15, 14, 13, 9, 8 15, 15, 14, 12, 11, 8
(b) 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 15, 14, 13, 11, 9, 9 15, 13, 12, 11, 10, 10 15, 13, 11, 11, 11, 9 14, 14, 13, 12, 12, 9 14, 12, 11, 10, 10, 7
(c) 13, 13, 11, 10, 10, 8 12, 11, 11, 11, 10, 9
... what we need to see is this ...
(a) +2, +2, +2, +1, −1, −1 +2, +2, +2, +1, +0, −1
(b) +2, +2, +1, +1, +0, +0 +2, +2, +1, +0, −1, −1 +2, +1, +1, +0, +0, +0 +2, +1, +0, +0, +0, −1 +2, +2, +1, +1, +1, −1 +2, +1, +0, +0, +0, −2
(c) +1, +1, +0, +0, +0, −1 +1, +0, +0, +0, +0, −1
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2010
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Thank you Haldrik for all this data, it is going to influence the way I allow characters to be rolled in the future.  If they dont want to use the sensible option of point buy or array, I will allow 2d6+4 as a compromise
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In my next campaign I'm going to use a communal dice rolling method. For each stat we'll roll a number of times as players and after each roll the players can decide who it goes to.
This will provide the diversity of rolling, allow the group to disperse the extreme rolls so that there's not as much disperity between players, and allow those player that have builds in mind to work towards them.
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2007
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I am still holding out hope that WotC undoes their prior simplification that really complicated things - by which I refer to their decision to make ability modifiers +/- 1 for every 2 points away from 10.
It made remember what modifier each score had a touch easier, but made rolling your ability scores much more difficult to accurately balance the game around.
Below, I have included a summary of the way ability score bonuses were staggered in D&D (AD&D has similar ranges, but much more granular results) prior to 3rd Edition, and the statistical probability of each modifier if using the then-standard 3d6 method.
3 -3 4-5 -2 6-8 -1 9-12 no modifier 13-15 +1 16-17 +2 18 +3
Easy (enough) to remember because the middle 4 numbers have no modifier, then 3 numbers have +1 or -1, then 2 numbers have +2 or -2, then only one number has +3 or -3.
+/-3 Modifier 0.46% chance +/-2 Modifier 4.17% chance +/-1 Modifier 21.29% chance 0 modifier 48.14% chance
Chance of negative modifier 25.92%, with same chance of positive modifier.
Then compare to the same die method with the 3rd editon (and forward) ability modifiers
+/-4 Modifier 0.46% chance, a widening of bonus range being an inherent difficulty in balance calculation. +/-3 Modifier 4.17% chance, a roughly 900% increase in likelyhood. +/-2 Modifier 11.57% chance, a roughly 277% increase in likelyhood. +/-1 Modifier 21.29% chance, the only range that doesn't change. 0 Modifier 25% chance, a roughly 50% decrease in likelyhood.
Chance of negative modifier 37.5%, a roughly 144% increase in likelyhood, and the same for chance of positive modifier.
Used to be the modifiers were based specifically around the idea that most scores would be in the "no modifier' range, so the game math could assume that you didn't have any modifiers - and then each plus was a genuine bonus and each minus a geniune obstacle, but not all that likely to be majorly significant.
...then they decided simple calculation of modifier was more important than being able to set their "benchmark" at a +0 modifier, and decided (if you look at the game math) that they would instead set the benchmark so high as to make people genuinely feel they had to max out their prime ability score or face "uselessness".
With D&D Next aiming for a bounded accuracy system that stands up to the stress of accomodating multipl play (and character generation) styles, I'd have figured putting ability modifiers back the way they were would have been the first step.
Careful, man. That much logic might be illegal on the internet. - Salla
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@Aaron. I can support the increase of bonuses, by every three score points:
Heroic Human • −1 (7-9) • +0 (10-12) • +1 (13-15) • +2 (16-18)
Superhuman • +3 (19-21)
But so far, D&D Next seems to solve the problem of disruptively high bonuses by narrowing scores, generally from 10-15. That seems a good solution to me too.
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Because of the general uselessness of odd scores, I would be fine if, even-number scores only give the bonus to Checks and Defense, while odd-number scores only give the bonus to attacks and spell DCs.
(If splitting a bonus by three score points: Checks, then Defense, then Attack.)
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2008
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There are two mechanisms that need to be reconciled here. The first is that some people desire randomness and the second is that some people desire stability amongst players. In order to manage both you need to create a system that has a autocorrelating factor than diminishes that likelihood of good rolls after already rolling a good roll or bad rolls after already rolling a bad roll. There are ways to do this while still maintaining random distribtuions of stats, but it would be very complicated to explain to a player why they have to go through so much trouble just to simulate a pointsbought array.
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Date Joined:
May 10, 2012
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Why not randomly select from legal point-bought arrays? There's several ways to do this:
1. Create a bunch of arrays using the point buy rules and then have people roll to select one
2. Use a computer program that spits out legal arrays randomly (Wizards could easily make an app that is available for use at the table)
3. Use a hybrid roll/point buy method where you start out rolling for scores but keep track of how much they would cost using point buy (any real low rolls would be bumped up to the point buy minimum); after the first four stats or so you use the remaining points to buy the last stats
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Date Joined:
Feb 10, 2008
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Um...I'm not sure how much this affects the math in this thread, but the current ability score array is 15/14/13/12/10/8, not 15/14/13/12/11/10, which corresponds exactly to what is possible in the 27 point point-buying option.
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