|
4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 12:07PM
#51
|
|
|
Min-maxers are always thrown off when the game includes heaps of things they thought were going to be useless. You're going to piss them off to start with, since they've already maxed their character for combat and minimized all dialog and bartering skills. Or vice versa. And then you throw them into situations where they don't stand a chance because of their horrible skills.
That's my best solution to dealing with min-maxers. Just throw heapings of stuff in that you know they're not prepared for.
I'm really hoping that post was a joke, Lunar Savage. I can't tell over text.
One part joke. One part seriousness.
I despise min-maxers. With a passion. My own brother is one of those types. Loves to power build and optimize. Needless to say, I thoroughly piss him off when I'm DMing.
How very mature of you. Way to lead a table.
Well, to be fair, I only do it because he's my brother. :3
With other players, I take a more reasonable approach.
Edit: And yes, I'm still recommending you take the suggested approach. 1. It's funnier. 2. You probably stand a better chance of breaking them from the habit than most other methods. Min-maxers who finally realize that their attempts to quantify a game that can be completely random and include a variety of important styles will usually start roleplaying instead.
No, that makes too much sense.
A character sheet is a player's love letter to the DM. If someone wants to do something and they want to do it well, let them. Encourage them. Have fun with it. -Unknown
An adventure is a DM's love letter to the players. If the DM wants something to happen in the game, let it. Encourage the DM. Have fun with it. -Centauri I'd love for input as to what it should be rather than arguments against why I shouldn't have it at all. -lialwyn Best defense that I've read in favor of having alignment systems as an option
Spoiler:
Show
However, if some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.
I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?" than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" because the former posits that improvement could be made...the latter only undermines the enjoyment of the person who is using alignment. -YagamiFire
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 12:10PM
#52
|
|
|
Min-maxers are always thrown off when the game includes heaps of things they thought were going to be useless. You're going to piss them off to start with, since they've already maxed their character for combat and minimized all dialog and bartering skills. Or vice versa. And then you throw them into situations where they don't stand a chance because of their horrible skills.
That's my best solution to dealing with min-maxers. Just throw heapings of stuff in that you know they're not prepared for.
I'm really hoping that post was a joke, Lunar Savage. I can't tell over text.
One part joke. One part seriousness.
I despise min-maxers. With a passion. My own brother is one of those types. Loves to power build and optimize. Needless to say, I thoroughly piss him off when I'm DMing.
How very mature of you. Way to lead a table.
Well, to be fair, I only do it because he's my brother. :3
With other players, I take a more reasonable approach.
Edit: And yes, I'm still recommending you take the suggested approach. 1. It's funnier. 2. You probably stand a better chance of breaking them from the habit than most other methods. Min-maxers who finally realize that their attempts to quantify a game that can be completely random and include a variety of important styles will usually start roleplaying instead.
No, that makes too much sense.
Agree. That makes too much sense.
I prefer to say that there is no wrong way to play D&D or to be a DM. However I will also make snide remarks that indicate that what Lunar does is definitely wrong for both D&D and as a DM. I'm awesome.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
My blog and stuff http://dmingtowin.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 12:12PM
#53
|
Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
|
Min-maxers are always thrown off when the game includes heaps of things they thought were going to be useless. You're going to piss them off to start with, since they've already maxed their character for combat and minimized all dialog and bartering skills. Or vice versa. And then you throw them into situations where they don't stand a chance because of their horrible skills.
That's my best solution to dealing with min-maxers. Just throw heapings of stuff in that you know they're not prepared for.
I'm really hoping that post was a joke, Lunar Savage. I can't tell over text.
One part joke. One part seriousness.
I despise min-maxers. With a passion. My own brother is one of those types. Loves to power build and optimize. Needless to say, I thoroughly piss him off when I'm DMing.
How very mature of you. Way to lead a table.
Well, to be fair, I only do it because he's my brother. :3
With other players, I take a more reasonable approach.
Edit: And yes, I'm still recommending you take the suggested approach. 1. It's funnier. 2. You probably stand a better chance of breaking them from the habit than most other methods. Min-maxers who finally realize that their attempts to quantify a game that can be completely random and include a variety of important styles will usually start roleplaying instead.
No, that makes too much sense.
Agree. That makes too much sense.
I prefer to say that there is no wrong way to play D&D or to be a DM. However I will also make snide remarks that indicate that what Lunar does is definitely wrong for both D&D and as a DM. I'm awesome.
You're good people, Yagami. Good people.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!)
*Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb.
http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 12:22PM
#54
|
|
|
You're good people, Yagami. Good people.
That's a lie! Take it back or I'll shoryuken you so hard three heads will pop off Mortal Kombat-style!
As for the OP, again, I can't stress enough that when the game rewards more than combat (kombat?) the players will respond to more than just combat.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
My blog and stuff http://dmingtowin.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 12:25PM
#55
|
Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
|
You're good people, Yagami. Good people.
That's a lie! Take it back or I'll shoryuken you so hard three heads will pop off Mortal Kombat-style!
As for the OP, again, I can't stress enough that when the game rewards more than combat (kombat?) the players will respond to more than just combat.
Sorry, I can't hear you. I was too busy Ryu scrubbing. He shouts Hadoken so damn loud...
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!)
*Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb.
http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 8:55PM
#56
|
Date Joined:
May 14, 2010
|
Having powerful characters doesn't mean they can't roleplay. Them having powerful characters makes it easier on you as a DM. You can throw nearly anything at them, and they'll survive for the next part of the story.
This
*Non-MinMax Group*
Me: They going to love this story, but now the question is how to balance it so I won't kill them?
*MinMax Group*
Me: Sweet, these guys can kill anything I sent. Balance chart? *makes Yao Ming face*
I'll just focus more on the story. Prepare for a master piece.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 10:52PM
#57
|
Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2007
|
Don't worry about it. Just let them get a feel for the game, 4E is a combat heavy system. You will find out what they like as they learn the game. Just remember to present them with challenges that aren't always combat focused if you think it's going to improve the fun for all. Players build character backgrounds and substance in the early levels, you don't have to force the issue, just keep asking questions.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 04, 2013 - 9:39PM
#58
|
|
|
When you can make your players feel really good about their charactors, shining in combat without min/max..
When you can make combat encounter go quickly and challenging without taking forever each round having to ground out hit points, without having to dumb down the encounter...
When..maximizing a charactor don't matter in game mechanics...
Then you wont have to convince your players to min/max.. They will do it on their own.
Until then, making the most effective charactor is something you the DM want, not retarded charactors who are useless in game mechanics and only good for their mouth at the table. You can have both.. Good role playong and optimized charactors.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 05, 2013 - 3:22AM
#59
|
|
|
Get to learn your players and talk with them about their and your wishes and motivations in the game. Ultimately you will have little influence on their play preferences and trying to reform the powergamers through any obvious rewards is just going to aggrevate the players. For example, I have never seen xp being a good method to influence the players into specific behavior. In that regards, simply running the game as you like and not directly reward one behavior (let alone punishing it) tends to have a much bigger impact then any direct carrot/stick mechanics. Sticking with players (or a DM) that has big different play style preferences is just going to lead to aggrevation and an unfun game for all involved.
Note btw that in case of D&D (whether 3.x, Pathfinder or 4e) you are fighting against the game system if you really want to prevent mechanical optimalization. The game focusses on team play and specialization which by definition rewards such optimalization, which btw can also involve focussing on social interaction (as all the infamous diplomancers show).
|
|
|
|
3 months ago ::
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:47PM
#60
|
|
|
Lots of advice in this thread, but in the end - if these players have no interest in roleplaying, and are just looking for a bash things type of game - they may not enjoy being forced to roleplay.
Thing is I won't run a game if I don''t enjoy it too. And they aren't just wanting combat. But whenever I offer them things they always pick the one that effects combat statistics. Then again that could be the video game mind that they have pushing them towards other choices.
But if they did just wan't a beat em up game I wouldn't run it. I would have no fun in playing it.
I guess I feel like the important thing to remember is that 95% of the rules for 4e are combat-related. And the item and feat distribution is somewhat similar. There are frightfully few relevant "out of combat statistics," and roleplaying requires precisely none of them. The correct mechanical choice is always going to be the one that has a larger effect, and the combat statistics will always have a larger effect.
Roleplaying situations should be resolved via...roleplaying, where mechanics are irrelevant. Skill challenges are pretty meh in my opinion, but even if you use them very frequently, taking Skill Focus instead of Crossbow Focus is never a good trade.
So my impression (you're being kind of vague) is that you're offering them choices between things like a Maul of Facesmashing +2 and a Lockpick of Greater Lockpicking. The two just aren't of equal value, and it's absolutely unfair to be upset that they're repeatedly choosing correctly. Change up what you're offering them so that all of the options are even. Don't be afraid to present them entirely with non-combat-usable rewards for options sometimes. I often give weapons and armor as rewards for combat, and trinkets that are better used out of combat as rewards for non-combat encounters. Of course, the barbarian is still an idiot if he replaces his horned helm with a headband of perception, but the bard might be perfectly happy wearing an exceptional factotum helm, and alternative rewards such as Gather Flames have no practical use, tons of roleplay potential, and don't compete with traditional item slots at all. Rewarding a major roleplaying quest with a skill power is an excellent idea as well.
I cannot disagree with this more. You can write/modify your adventures in such a way that defeat is certain for failure to roleplay and victory is for good roleplaying regardless of what weapons, armor and attack powers you have. And more often, shame works. If someone is expected to be your resident druid, and they don't know how to make a simple poultice, they know nothing about the local flora and fauna etc. then the townsfolk should make fun of them, the other druids should treat them like a little child who doesn't know anything etc. And when they do some cool roleplaying stuff (diplomacy instead of combat because they believe in hope etc.) they should get bigger rewards (praise, titles, allies etc.) then they do from just hacking away. And if there was a diplomatic option, and someone died because of combat, hold the PCs who pushed for the fight accountable. Make them as morally culpable as the bad guys.
|
|
|
