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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 7:41AM
#1
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How do you use them? Can you even use them?
Thoughts and opinions on if they have a place in this edition, or how you've actually implemented them. I'm curious to know how the board lines up on the issue.
As a DM, I find it easier to just punish the players no matter what they pick, as I assume they will pick stuff that is broken. I mean, fight after fight they kill all the monsters without getting killed themselves! What sort of a game is this, anyway?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 7:51AM
#2
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Geas would probably work best as a curse (any curse really) with the required action being what is needed to break the curse. Quest effects could be worked in somehow or another I would think, though how is really a toss up since they could probably fit into at least two categories of usage.
So, short answer, yea, they could work. Though how is likely varied from person to person.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 8:34AM
#3
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I'm not entirely sure what fantasy trope (sword of Damocles maybe?) geas or quest is really supposed to emulate. To me, it screams: "The DM can't think of any other way for me to jump through his hoops, so I'm now compelled to do so by a spell... or else."
There are much better and less cheesy ways to achieve the same end, the easiest of which is to simply ask the players directly what they believe would compel their characters to take on a certain quest or the like, then use it. Heck, they might even suggest geas or quest. But at least then you have their buy-in and engagement rather than their reluctant compliance with an in-game control measure.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 10:55AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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I'm not entirely sure what fantasy trope (sword of Damocles maybe?) geas or quest is really supposed to emulate. To me, it screams: "The DM can't think of any other way for me to jump through his hoops, so I'm now compelled to do so by a spell... or else."
There are much better and less cheesy ways to achieve the same end, the easiest of which is to simply ask the players directly what they believe would compel their characters to take on a certain quest or the like, then use it. Heck, they might even suggest geas or quest. But at least then you have their buy-in and engagement rather than their reluctant compliance with an in-game control measure.
Right. Quest and geas effects didn't "work" in past editions, except when the players were gung-ho for the idea anyway. That's still necessary and sufficient in 4th Edition.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 4:28PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2005
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What Iserth and Centauri said. Why do you want to use one of the effects, what is your goal with this effect? Is there something specific you want to accomplish.
5e comments and thoughts all in one place. Check it out to provide feedback, mock, or steal ideas. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28835423/Krusks_5e_Design_Goals?sdb=1
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 4:34PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2009
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I'm not entirely sure what fantasy trope (sword of Damocles maybe?) geas or quest is really supposed to emulate. To me, it screams: "The DM can't think of any other way for me to jump through his hoops, so I'm now compelled to do so by a spell... or else."
There are much better and less cheesy ways to achieve the same end, the easiest of which is to simply ask the players directly what they believe would compel their characters to take on a certain quest or the like, then use it. Heck, they might even suggest geas or quest. But at least then you have their buy-in and engagement rather than their reluctant compliance with an in-game control measure.
Right. Quest and geas effects didn't "work" in past editions, except when the players were gung-ho for the idea anyway. That's still necessary and sufficient in 4th Edition.
You guys must have horrible players. I've used geas to guide over half an entire campaign. They didn't like it in the beginning, but they accepted it after they realized my implementation of it didn't really have too huge an effect on their usual gameplay.
So basically, I'm saying your methods suck. I'm going to be really blunt from here on out.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!) *Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb. http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 5:12PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Sep 29, 2009
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If you must railroad your players another "in the rules" option would be to use the character motivations optional rules from DMG2 with the character's normal motivations over ridden by the geas effect.
The way I see that it could be used with out upsetting some players is if it's like the labours of Herakleas and the geas that appeare in Irish tradition. Less a curse thrown by someone else but a willingly accepted punishment to keep yourself honest.
The sea looks at the stabillity of the mountian and sighs. The mountian watches the freedom of the sea and cries.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 5:14PM
#8
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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You guys must have horrible players. I've used geas to guide over half an entire campaign. They didn't like it in the beginning, but they accepted it after they realized my implementation of it didn't really have too huge an effect on their usual gameplay.
So basically, I'm saying your methods suck. I'm going to be really blunt from here on out.
Not a good way to start out the conversation.
Whther a Geas is effective or not is if the players are alright with the idea. If they aren't, and it's forced on them, they're going to be annoyed for the rest of the session.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 6:34PM
#9
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Gonna have to agree with LunarSavage though I'll be a little more...restrained in my condemnation  First to answer a question of "WTF is this supposed to emulate?!"...well, Hercules and his labors is a great example. Second this all depends on how things are done. If the situation arises where a player fails a save and gets hit with a Geas or whathaveyou that is a case of "crud happens". My players would take it as an opportunity (like they treat everything) to see where it goes. After all, it's almost certainly going to be something dangerous...and dangerous things are rewarded by the mechanics of the game itself. They will get loots & XPs. Hooray! It also gives them plenty of potential drama and that makes for interesting times. The problem arises when tables blur the line into a "narrative" model where there is a story to derail or to force...so a Geas either derails an existing story narrative by taking it in a sudden different direction or it forces a story narrative onto the players by giving them an in-game force compelling them. This, of course, is all caused by the existence of a pre-conceived story...and there-in lies the actual problem. If there IS NO STORY then there is nothing to derail or to force. Instead, a geas or quest simply becomes a new event/situation for the PCs to deal with in whatever way they so choose. It is not the DM giggling as he enacts part of his master plan, it is simply an NPC taking an action that would make sense for the NPC to do. And fair is fair...I've also had players use geas/quest to great effect. Curses are similar to this. In fact, one of my players started my current game with a powerful curse on him involving a weighted stone around his neck. And he did so at his own request because he had a cool idea. Interestingly enough, he fully expected this curse to last a while since Remove Curse requires at least a 5th level cleric and those aren't super common AND most won't just cast such a powerful miracle for free. Well, they happened to randomly stumble upon a group of friendly hobgoblins who randomly had a 5th level cleric of the hobgoblin god-king in their company. After they fought alongside each other, the hob cleric took a whack at removing the curse stating that his was the most powerful god...I rolled...Nat-20...the stone dropped off. This happened in like the 8th or 9th session. Everyone was flabberghasted...heck I was shocked! It was awesome! That lead to the hobgoblin telling the PC that he must travel to the hobgoblin capital within 1 year and offer up his service to the god-king to fulfill one task. Now, no geas or quest was involved in this...it was just something the hobgoblin stated as compensation...and the player embraced it whole-heartedly. It's becoming one of his most repeated talking points both in and out of character and something he references constantly some-20 or so sessions later. They then turned the tables on Curses by using one to weaken a dwarf assassin released into their custody to help them find someone else. What was good for the goose became good for the gander. And that was cool too! So, like so much, I will say ithat Geas/Quests can become a major issue when a story is presumed (or being preciously crafted by a wannabenovelist...uh I mean Dungeon Master)...they can also become an issue when players take game-events personally instead of accepting the game as a game and using the events of the game to craft interesting situations for themselves. After all, there's a big difference between exclaiming "That sucks!" and claiming "That isn't fair!"...the first can be legitimate but doesn't mean it has to be negative...the latter is usually someone acting out because something in a GAME hasn't gone their way...which is a sign of immaturity.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
My blog and stuff http://dmingtowin.blogspot.com/
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 6:47PM
#10
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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In fact, one of my players started my current game with a powerful curse on him involving a weighted stone around his neck. And he did so at his own request because he had a cool idea.
An example of how these kind of things SHOULD be used.
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