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Switch to Forum Live View "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"
5 months ago  ::  Jan 26, 2013 - 2:54AM #31
Luis_Carlos
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 2,551
While wizard is casting a spell the fighter can throw him half-dozen of axes, or a stone with a explosive rune.
"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)


Book 13 Anaclet 23

Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 26, 2013 - 3:06AM #32
Scald
Date Joined: Nov 5, 2012
Posts: 125
+1 on skill tricks for fighters. I already suggested this on some other thread. Though I used the name "Martial Practices" like it was in 4th edition. There are lots of martial practice rituals that would still be very viable in D&DN (though they wouldn't be in the form of rituals obviously).
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 26, 2013 - 3:20AM #33
Bluenose
Date Joined: Aug 18, 2006
Posts: 902

Jan 26, 2013 -- 2:54AM, Luis_Carlos wrote:

While wizard is casting a spell the fighter can throw him half-dozen of axes, or a stone with a explosive rune.




In 3e casting a spell is (usually; there are exceptions) a standard action. Throwing six axes is a Full round action. And it's a lot harder to interrupt casting than it was in AD&D, due to the "streamlining" of initiative.

These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling,
And took their wages, and are dead.

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 26, 2013 - 3:27AM #34
FallingIcicle
Date Joined: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 1,055
I think I should clarify a few things, as I obviously did a poor job explaining myself in my original post.

First, I'm not suggesting that wizards should be just the way they were in past editions. I'm fine with reducing the number of spell slots, having concentration to limit spell stacking, and reducing the power of spells that were problematic in past editions. What I object to is the notion that wizards shouldn't be able to do things like fly or teleport at all. I think there are plenty of ways of balancing such powers without removing them from the game entirely.

Second, no, I don't want fighters to be able to fly or teleport (unless they have magic items, rituals or some other magical means of doing so, of course). What I want is for them to have thematically appropriate abilities for the other two non-combat pillars of play. Obviously they aren't going to do things like fly or turn people into toads. But there are plenty of things that they could do that would be amazing and powerful without being magical, such as skill tricks similar to those the rogue gets, but a different list of tricks that is thematically appropriate for the fighter class. The avantage these things would have over magic is their ease of use. You wouldn't see a fighter's "inspiring presence" have a daily limit or be able to be dispelled. That's where there's balance. Yes, a wizard can do things a fighter never can, but his powers also have limits and drawbacks that a fighter's powers don't.
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 26, 2013 - 3:30AM #35
CVB
Date Joined: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 900

Jan 25, 2013 -- 11:58PM, CCS wrote:

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />The problem doesn't really lie with the wizards being over-powered at ___ LV.  Or the druids.  Or the clerics.  Or whatever other caster class you want to complain about that week.
No, the real culprit in all of these "x is over-powered" sob stories has pretty much always been the DM. 
And always will be.




Of course it because using the system as written is JUST PLAIN WRONG!  And all us GMs who believe that the game system will be built along the lines of fairness are stupid and should be banned from GMing ever again.

Jan 25, 2013 -- 11:58PM, CCS wrote:

Because no matter what the designers write?  It's the DMs that are actually responsible for virtually everthing that happens throughout a campaign.  Including:
Allowing wich spells are in the game they're running. 
Determining the effects of those spells. 
How much/what types of treasure get found. 
For allowing wich magic items exist, are found/bought, & crafted.
Wich types & how many foes to include per encounter.
Even when to stick with RAW or changing something.




Other than this is the 'Oberani Fallacy', do you know what Wil Wheaton says?  "Don't be a dick."  And you know what I have to BE when I restrict ONE CLASS, JUST ONE CLASS, so that everyone can play nice in the sandbox?  A dick.  A jerk.  Because I have to make ONE PLAYER SUFFER because he wants to play a Caster type (typically a wizard.)

And do you know what is hilarious?  YOU ARE ACKNOWLEDGING THAT YES, THERE IS A SYSTEM PROBLEM WITH MAGIC!  "But, no," you'll say.  And I point out the fact that you are suggesting TAKING AWAY BROKEN MECHANICS under the guise of 'house rules/fixing'.

So you KNOW full well that Magic IS indeed broken and is indeed in dire need of fixing.  Because if it didn't need fixing, there'd be no need to restrict or remove.

Thank you very much for proving, once again, that Magic IS broken in D&D.

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 26, 2013 - 4:06AM #36
Badasterisk
Date Joined: Feb 28, 2011
Posts: 21
BB/LG:  bend bars/lift gates

It's from 2e- when 'balance' occured because each class had a different xp requirement in order to level up; wizard being most expensive/slowest to gain new levels.
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 26, 2013 - 4:46AM #37
Monsieur_Moustache
Date Joined: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 1,577
Wizards weren't underpowered at low level, they just weren't able to spam their overpowered spells (I'm not talking about damaging spells, of course).

The problem is the wizard being Master-of-all trades, even if it's once per day.
The specialist wizard should be the default, and generalists should loose something for their lack of focus.

Balancing the generalist vs the other classes and then adding features to reward specilization is a nonsense. 
"They are making it clear that when modern design and common sense come into conflict with tradition, tradition wins." - thecasualoblivion
"Vancian isn't broken, you just have to set your game to the wizard's clock!" - Oxybe
"In many ways, making a new edition of D&D is alot like trying to sell a car to the Amish." - Dwarfslayer
"Encounters are the heart of the AD&D game" - PHB AD&D 2nd edition.
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- Gary Gygax
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 26, 2013 - 4:55AM #38
Senevri
Date Joined: Nov 7, 2005
Posts: 1,725
I don't approve of focusing on balance above all else.

I agree with OP in that taking away the things from a wizard that make them feel like wizards is a bad thing.

One way I've seen this issue handled is by raising the level of abstraction.
For an example, if you can, generally speaking, change your environment, apply a status effect to object or creature, and affect from one to many objects in an area, you don't need much more than that.

A Fighter could create a Wall effect by guarding at some direction. A fighter might hit every enemy within reach- or within area -  by increasing the difficulty of succeeding. A fighter might apply a status effect to a creature by doing a contested roll. 

Flying opponent? throw a grappling rope at them and climb up to start hitting them. If that takes roughly the same time as a wizard casting a flight spell, it's quite fair. A wizard needs to prepare the fly spell, a fighter needs to prepare a grappling rope. 

Of course, some may feel that's too abstract for DnD, where the tactical wargaming IS part of the fun...

One of the things I think I will want to implicitly give by fighters is dispel by melee. I think this will be part of Next, by the way of forcing concentration checks, but, for an example, parrying a fireball or somesuch. After all, it's traditional fluff is that it's a flaming small sphere until it reaches it's target zone. 

(Hmm... an adamantite jar and a prepared action should have worked in 3e too, come to think of it...) 
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 26, 2013 - 5:30AM #39
chuck80
Date Joined: Sep 21, 2007
Posts: 785
Why does everyone seem to think that having "balanced" classes is all that important?
if wizards were really overpowered we would see all-wizards parties, yet we don't.
could it be that being fun to play is a more important balancing factor than simple threat elimination ?

People run around praising "balance" as if it's the most important thing for this game to be fun, yet what proof do we have that it is really something that's desirable?

And what is balance anyway?
Being able to do as much damage in the same amount of time? is that it?
how long are we talking? 1 round? (where the rogue is the clear winner) an encounter? a string of 10 encounters? (when those vancian spells begin to pale in comparison with the at-will goodness of the sharpened stick)
What about the risks? do they factor in ? (i'm talking about the no-armor clause and poor HD) If your "unballanced" wizard is dead, is he still more powerfull than the very-much-still-alive fighter?
what about what happends OUTSIDE combat? does that stuff matters to anyone?

Dnd is about a team, each with his own DIFFERENT capacities, working togetter to overcome obstacles.

I think it would be far more simple to just learn to live with the fact that a guy who bends the laws of physics to his will should be able to do stuff that is impossible for a guy who's top ability is "being good at swinging a blunt object."


I, for one,  would like the design team to try and work more on making each class as UNIQUE and FUN as possible, and less on trying to achieve a sort of artificial balance that wouldn't satisfy most players anyway.
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 26, 2013 - 5:51AM #40
Orzel
Date Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Posts: 3,368
Balance in D&D shouldnt be THE goal. But D&D's balance should be there. And the main aspect of this should be "Balance for skill".

The issue with D&D  is that there are extremely difficult to stay involved without being an awesome pole player or sacrificing effectiveness. And there are classes that can affect every scene with such ease that the player has to nerf themselves to be fair.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.

Constitution Based Class for Next!
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