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Jan 26, 2013 -- 9:15AM, Shiroiken wrote:

Agreed. Perception as a single skill is too much, but I don't like it broken down into 3 skills either (I would combine Spot and Search). I worry with Stealth, but I think that is only used often because it is a player driven skill, as opposed to most skills that are DM driven. The skills that are too narrow should be folded into other skills so that they can occur more often.

I don't like some of their current skill selections because they don't really consider the opposing skill.  Use Rope and Escape Artist are great examples of opposing skills.  It's even ok to have some skills that only serve to oppose themselves - like in 3.5, the Forgery skill was opposed by itself, with the idea being if you could make a forgery then you could detect a forgery and vice versa.  However, in the current packet Spot and Listen vs. Stealth is my biggest pet peeve.  Spot and Listen should be in the same skill, or Stealth should be separated out to Hide and Move Silently to allow for the symmetry of skills.

The reason I have trouble with the current setup is what I've dubbed the "double Perception phenomenon."  If I Stealth, I am both moving silently and hiding.  Darting from cover to cover, trying to stay out of sight.  So, let's say I'm tailing someone.  I would roll my Stealth once as a total measure of my ability to remain undetected for a period of time.  The target would then get to roll both Spot and Listen, essentially giving them two different chances to notice me within a single Stealth check.

If I were to group two skills, then I think Spot and Listen should be folded into a Perception skill - Search can remain separate (otherwise it would be way too powerful, IMO).  This way, you only roll once to both hear, see, or smell a potential threat or to notice things from a distance, but without the close-up details that Search offers (the difference between "coarse" and "fine" granularity for using your senses).

Jan 27, 2013 -- 11:39PM, Keendk wrote:

 So I agree with you that Listen and Spot should be one skill, as I see it as a waste if for some reason the player has chosen both but can ever only use one of them. BUT what happens if you only have 1 skill for both and someone deafens or blinds you? Do you still get to use the combined skill? And if so the condition is completely useless.

That is why they need to be two separate skills.

Jan 28, 2013 -- 12:51AM, Lord_Kyrion wrote:

Jan 27, 2013 -- 11:39PM, Keendk wrote:

 So I agree with you that Listen and Spot should be one skill, as I see it as a waste if for some reason the player has chosen both but can ever only use one of them. BUT what happens if you only have 1 skill for both and someone deafens or blinds you? Do you still get to use the combined skill? And if so the condition is completely useless.

That is why they need to be two separate skills.

The problem is the penalties will still exist.  Even if you are able to detect a creature with your other senses, you would still suffer massive penalties, especially if you're blinded.  More to the point, under Noticing or Finding a Hidden Creature, it says that the Wisdom check uses a mix of both looking and listening, not either or.

Jan 28, 2013 -- 5:29PM, The_TROLL wrote:

Jan 25, 2013 -- 8:18PM, FallingIcicle wrote:

Maybe my character is a desert nomad who can run for hours without tiring and is great at climbing rocks but has never gone swimming in his whole life. Having a general skill like "athletics" prevents me from making such a character.

No it doesn't.
Just make a note on your sheet that your PC can't swim.
Then you can use Athletics for everything but swimming, which you have no chance at.

What if I wanted a character that occasionally climbed mountains in his youth and knows how to do it, but spent most of his time swimming and is excellent at it?