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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 6:45AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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K without getting into an edition war (as to which is superior and which is inferior) I was wondering if anybody could help me differentiate between “Epic Fantasy” “High Fantasy” Heroic Fantasy” and “Super Heroic” Fantasy and how these might relate to the design of a traditional RPG like dungeons and dragons.
Heroic Fantasy has common characteristics such as setting being otherworldly, etc. and other charistics such as (from wiki) “Frequently, the protagonist is reluctant to be a champion, is of low or humble origin, and has royal ancestors or parents but does not know it. Though events are usually beyond their control, they are thrust into positions of great responsibility where their mettle is tested in a number of spiritual and physical challenges. Although it shares many of the basic themes of Sword and Sorcery the term 'Heroic fantasy' is often used to avoid the garish overtones of the former.[
Epic and High Fantasy seem to have the same charistics but possibly more focused on defeating or ending a great evil. Super-Heroic Fantasy- is much harder to define… the definition of a super hero (especially considering a human character like Batman or the Punisher) is very hard to nail down. I guess I would say a Super Heroic fantasy is more of a feeling I get… or when every one of the main characters has some set of rare powers vastly superior to normal humans. I guess for me the power level is what makes the difference between Heroic Fantasy and Super Hero fantasy…. Would you have a better way of defining these terms? I really didn’t play 3.5, I am playing in a PF campaign and it does seem extremely super-heroic to me in that most superheroes from marvel could reach a close approximation by around 10th level with a properly optimized character, some (like Captain America, Hawkeye etc) in a slightly weakened form at 1st level. 4.0 also seemed more super-hero than high fantasy because of the power level of the characters even as first level adventurers. It wasn’t just that they had the capability to use magic, it was that the magic they used was more typical of much higher levels of play than in previous editions , such as fey step (similar to d-door gained as a racial ability) Arguably in all editions characters progress from gritty fantasy, to heroic fantasy, to wuxa to superherodom (though to me, 4e leapt right into superherodom at first level.) However, the mechanics of say a fighter in AD&D remained the same to the mechanics a mundane NPC would use when trying to attack an opponent, where as later editions relied more on improved class features, paragon, specialization, advanced feats or powers to greatly improve on how a melee character might attack. The power level and availability of magic items also seemed to increase with each edition especially once characters were given the ability to craft their own permanent magic items. Your thoughts?
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 6:58AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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Well, even in 1st ed AD&D magic users, clerics, druids, and illusionist were, at their highest points of power, MUCH more powerful then 4th edition or what's shaping up in Next. The disconnect between the disbelief over a fighter knocking an enemy prone, doing 3d8 damage, and shifting once a day vs allowing a magic-user to summon a pit-fiend and engage in mental combat with enemies while sitting in a prismatic sphere is hard to reconcile in my mind. So 1st edition, aside from the first 2 levels, ended up with even more of the super power feel. Until 3rd with it's multi-classing brokenness. Any game that has front loaded classes that lets you got 1/3/4/1/1/1/4/3/1/4/2.6/π/4 is going to feel unbalanced and will lead to some very over the top combos.
All 4th did was trim off the early weak tail and make things a bit more "rational" with the approach to wearing armor, using weapons, and having options for the players in each turn.
So power level analysis seems a bit off.
Additionally, terminology like what you are using will only lead to a constant debate. Because, on the internet or even face to face with D&D people... well lets just say D&D people can't even agree water is wet.
Ultimately it comes down to this: do you want to fight kobolds and rats (with the occassional boss sewer rat) in a "gritty" low power game or fight dragons, titans, and demon princes in a fantastical game?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 7:01AM
#3
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I liked 4e's 3-tier approach.
1-10: Farmer to olypians. (save the city).
11-20: Olypians to super-human. (save the country).
21-30: Super-humans to super-saiyans gods. (save the muli-verse).
Though 21-30 got beyond the general populace, as many people had trouble solving or creating plot's on the level of gods.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 7:07AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2006
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Epic Fantasy: The main characters are exceptional, their adventures and actions can change the fate or History of full kingdoms. Most of times is in a fictional world or universe.
High Fantasy: Magic and Supernatural forces have got a great influence over civiliations and society. In the HF the dragon doesn´t live in the far mountain but he is the king, or he controll the kingdom.
Super Hero Fantasy: The main characters, heros or villains have got paranormal powes and they are more powerful that rest of people, too much. Only a exceptional group have got that level of power. Some examples could be some mangas/animes like Dragon Quest, or the Mattel franchise He-Man and the Master of Universe..
Usually the superhero fiction happens in the current real world.
* Wikipedia says Epic Fantasy and High Fantasy are the same subgenre.
"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)
Book 13 Anaclet 23
Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"
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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 7:46AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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I liked 4e's 3-tier approach.
1-10: Farmer to olypians. (save the city).
11-20: Olypians to super-human. (save the country).
21-30: Super-humans to super-saiyans gods. (save the muli-verse).
Though 21-30 got beyond the general populace, as many people had trouble solving or creating plot's on the level of gods.
Yes, that's that's how it works in 4E. The difference in 4E as you progress is how you affect the world.
In reality 4e characters are quite mundane mechanically, even the magic ones. They hardly wield any power to bend reality to their will, even at the higher levels. What they get with progression is a wider array of options (tools) and the capabilty to shift bigger numbers, but that's about it.
I'm not sure if a 'super-heroic fantasy' actually exists. But if we think about power levels, translating to rpg games, perhaps we can look at things this way:
- Gritty fantasy: Warhammer, Games of Thrones
- High fantasy: D&D, Pathfinder
- Cosmic fantasy: Exalted, Mythender
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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 8:28AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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Mal- I think your being pretty selective with that completely unoptimized vanilla fighter, with all the racial/background choices available in 4e I suspect a character like that may not actually exist. Further, theres no reason that a 6th level party could not take on all those fantasticall creatures your talking about, it would just take more planning, forethought, and yes roll playing over rocket tag dice rolling a better question might be would I rather have my 1st level character be able solo a titan or not? (not saying thats what 4e is doing, just saying thats not a game style I enjoy)
also heres a pretty good arguement for all the characters in Lord of the Rings being below 6th level, (sort of the reason why theres a 6e in the first place...) thealexandrian.net Usk- thats a pretty good aproximation but it kind of fails when the progression of the characters is vastly different from system to system... for example, in AD&D I dont think I ever got a character legally above 14-15th level and that character I played for 6yrs gaming 8 hrs every week, yes the character went from relitive farmboy to uber "new monk" of doom... but it took six long years.... very different than my PF character thats gone from 1st to 8th with sessions lasting around half as long in less than 6 months.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 8:37AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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To me there are two different aspects talked about here.
One is of scope, how many people and how much of the world are you affecting.
The other is of reality warping, how flexible is your world is and how high the power level is.
Heroic is Low-Medium scope and and Low-Medium power. You can affect cities and a single kingdom but you rarely do things that are unbelievable or miraculous.
Superheroic and Paragon are both Fantasies where one is high and one is low or medium. They are differentiated by which ones are which. Superheroes is high power with a lower scope (Superman save Metropolis). Paragon is high scope with a lower power (Frodo saves Middle Earth).
Epic is High on scope and unbelievability. You are affecting the world with big effects.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 8:42AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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Usk- thats a pretty good aproximation but it kind of fails when the progression of the characters is vastly different from system to system... for example, in AD&D I dont think I ever got a character legally above 14-15th level and that character I played for 6yrs gaming 8 hrs every week, yes the character went from relitive farmboy to uber "new monk" of doom... but it took six long years.... very different than my PF character thats gone from 1st to 8th with sessions lasting around half as long in less than 6 months.
I don't know about progression tbh. It's been years since I've used actual xp. Normally I decide what kind of progression rate I'm happy in a given game and work from there. In our 4e campaign it took us 3 years to get from lv 1 to lv 16 playing once every 2-3 weeks. Our personal sweetspot is 3-4 sessions per level as it feels about right to get familiar with the new 'toys' and enjoy them in play before itching for something new.
Also now that we are experienced with the sytem I wouldn't have a problem starting a campaign at Paragon or even Epic tier if that fits the theme and the mood.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 8:49AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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To me there are two different aspects talked about here. One is of scope, how many people and how much of the world are you affecting. The other is of reality warping, how flexible is your world is and how high the power level is. Heroic is Low-Medium scope and and Low-Medium power. You can affect cities and a single kingdom but you rarely do things that are unbelievable or miraculous. Superheroic and Paragon are both Fantasies where one is high and one is low or medium. They are differentiated by which ones are which. Superheroes is high power with a lower scope (Superman save Metropolis). Paragon is high scope with a lower power (Frodo saves Middle Earth). Epic is High on scope and unbelievability. You are affecting the world with big effects.
humm... I think that actually is a much better way to put it, I guess I was discussing more about power level in general. very high powerlevel being superheroic... but yeah I think using those discriptors would be better.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 9:10AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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Mal- I think your being pretty selective with that completely unoptimized vanilla fighter, with all the racial/background choices available in 4e I suspect a character like that may not actually exist.
Further, theres no reason that a 6th level party could not take on all those fantasticall creatures your talking about, it would just take more planning, forethought, and yes roll playing over rocket tag dice rolling a better question might be would I rather have my 1st level character be able solo a titan or not? (not saying thats what 4e is doing, just saying thats not a game style I enjoy)
also heres a pretty good arguement for all the characters in Lord of the Rings being below 6th level, (sort of the reason why theres a 6e in the first place...) thealexandrian.net
Usk- thats a pretty good aproximation but it kind of fails when the progression of the characters is vastly different from system to system... for example, in AD&D I dont think I ever got a character legally above 14-15th level and that character I played for 6yrs gaming 8 hrs every week, yes the character went from relitive farmboy to uber "new monk" of doom... but it took six long years.... very different than my PF character thats gone from 1st to 8th with sessions lasting around half as long in less than 6 months.
If you don't like high level play then don't play with the high level rules. If you want characters to have the option of defeating powerful critters without using combat or combat stats nothing stops you from doiong so. However, tactical cannot be removed from the essence of D&D as that it's root. And whereas you can handwave roleplaying encounters to your heart's content when it comes to a challenging combat numbers and rules are important.
Anyways BECMI and AD&D sort of set the precedent that D&D was meant to be high fantasy. Presence of Wish, Alter Reality, the various planes, Deities and Demigods book etc. are all evidence of that.
4th had a higher power at the start (admittedly characters were much more robust) but much lower at the tail. I mean the numbers were higher sure.. but what you could actually do to the world around you was much lower. The robustness of the characters wasn't strictly numbers on the sheet however. It was also the removal of MANY one shot abilities and other drastically powered monster abilities that changed the whole environment.
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