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Jan 24, 2013 -- 2:40AM, Baalbamoth wrote:

what do you mean I cant try and throw sand in his eyes because thats a 4th level rogue ability? are you saying I have to be a rogue to fling sand?

Really? You really think this is the way it worked? Just...wow.

Jan 24, 2013 -- 8:58PM, Lawolf wrote:

P.S. for everyone who thinks level 1 PCs are superheroes in 4e. Run them against 4 orcs from the MM1 and watch your superhero PCs get pounded to a pulp.

That's true, the superhero comparison really falls apart when you compare the 4e PCs to 4e monsters/encounters instead of monsters or PCs of past editions.  And, given that a stiff wind could kill a 2e or 3e 1st level wizard (exaggeration, I know, but a housecat can which is just . . . wow), it's hard for 4e PCs not to look like superheroes by comparison.

the fling sand situation actually happened in our 4e game, we had a very good dm, but the issue was that there was already a rogue ability to do exactly what I wanted to do, the DM didnt want to piss off the rogue saying "now anyone can do that expensive feat you just paid for" but at the same time didnt want to tell me no. so on the fly the very good DM made up some rules so my flinging sand would be much less effective (when it wasnt too effective to begin with) and have a very slim chance of success... so now both of us should be happy right? wrong. It was a great dissapointment, a reasonable request for an action being altered to slim and worrthless because of rules. 

regarding the superhero issue, again it wasnt so much that combat was not ballanced, mostly it was, it was more the list of superheroic like abilities and options that most characters had available to them, including a glut of magic items that each added even more options. IE more teleporting/d-door like abilities, more invisible or obscuring abilities, more movement options, more "this is the perfect power to use for this exact situation" type abilities.

It was extremely difficult to get a PC or NPC in a situation they could not escape from, a PC death was essentially impossible assuming the PC knew when to get out of combat.

Options were carefully controlled so optimization was not as much an issue (which to 4e's credit is pretty amazing, generally more options means a greater environment for rule breakage due to one trick ponydom.)

but all in all, it felt way too controlled and PC's seemed superpowered even at 1st level, all grittyness seemed to be lost, the necessity for planning and strategy really wernt as much of issues (because real threats were rare and escape was always possible) and outcomes were generally predictable. The whole thing reminded me more of WoW than the gritty and suprising game I such nostalgic feelings for. 

I understand for some people it was the first game they really had great expirences with, and maybe the good old days always seem better wearing the nostalgia glasses, but really even with a DM that was incredible at plot and subplot formation, role playing, etc.. the rules themselves were killing my fun at every session, and for that reason I cant ever get on teh 4e bandwaggon, and really would prefer less rather than more 4e type rules making it into the 5th edition. 

PS. the wonderful description of 13th age a few postings ago... I wont be playing it, too close to a game I feel was pretty terrible and the whole thing sounds too wacky-whimsyish to me, but I will take a look at the rules. Tthere are a few things I find worthy of theft already... I'll likely steal the escalation die mechanic and for the short encounters I might employ the threat range simulation for when i run off the grid (I already do similar things for when I run persuits and chases... I'm a big believer in trying to include as many chace and race situations in a game as it really worked for Star Wars, Willow etc.)