Keeping this restricted to the "Core 11" classes for now, I'm working on a list of how well a certain class works in combination with either other specific classes or with several others in general. Does anybody else have any ideas? Am I at least slightly on the right track for how well different classes could combine? Am I completely wrong about anything, and there's something I haven't thought of? Should I organize this differently? Should I try to add more of the "non-core" classes?
Barbarian: Max BAB +20, Hit dice d12, Skill Points per level 4+ INT, Max saves Fort 12 / Ref 6 / Will 6
General: Almost any class (except for Monks, Paladins, and some Clerics) would benefit from the maximum health (d12), maximum BAB progression (1/1), and extra speed if nothing else, but especially spellcasters which have to depend on HP due to restrictions on armor, and the STR bonus from Rage would make up for STR being the traditional spellcaster-dump-stat (albiet at a penalty to AC, but one could still cast "Mage Armor" on oneself before going into a no-spells Rage).
Specific: Wizards and Barbarians have significantly different class skills, which makes a wizard's assumed-to-be-high INT even more useful.
Bard: +15, d6, 4+, 6/12/12
General: More dependent on the other class than vice versa
Specific: Rogues would benefit from any spellcaster that could provide flanking (Summon Monster and/or Dominate Person) or ways of denying defenders a DEX bonus to AC (Greater Invisibility), but would not necessarily have to be the spellcaster in question, making this a possible distraction against combining Rogue with another combat class and simply having a spellcasting ally.
Cleric: +15, d8, 2+, 12/6/12
General: Good with any WIS/CHA dominant class (Paladin, Sorcerer, some Rogues)
Specific: (see Bard about Rogues/spellcasters) Monks provide the fastest movement for going to allies for healing, high AC, and there is less MAD than with Monks + other spellcasters
Druid: +15, d8, 4+, 12/6/12
General: Wild Shape works well with anything that provides the maximum BAB (except for Paladins) for more attacks and would allow spellcasters/archers to defend themselves if enemies get close
Specific:
Fighter: +20, d10, 2+, 12/6/6
General: Maximum BAB works well with any combat-class that would have fewer attacks otherwise, high health protects anything that would've had lower, archery feats go well with spellcasters and/or anything that can become stronger up close (Barbarian, Druid)
Specific:
Monk +15, d8, 4+, 12/12/12
General: Increased speed/AC/health allow spellcasters to cast more "Range: touch" spells against enemies that they would generally stay away from, but high risk of MAD
Specific: (see Cleric) Unarmed strikes would eventually benefit from the high-level Paladin spell "Holy Sword," as combining both Flurry with max BAB and high AC with high Reflex saves would make sacrificing heavy armor more worthwhile
Paladin: +20, d10, 2+, 12/6/6
General: Maximum BAB, high health
Specific: (see Monk)
Ranger: +20, d8, 6+, 12/12/6
General: Maximum BAB, spellcasters could benefit from having archery feats, non-casters would benefit from even more attacks per turn from the TWF chain
Specific: Rogues could select favored enemies to be more competent against enemies generally immune to Sneak Attack, both classes are encouraged to use the same armor (light-none)
Rogue: +15, d6, 8+, 6/12/6
General: Massive extra damage works really well with anything that deals more attacks per turn (Ranger/Fighter for BAB + high health + TWF, Monk for Flurry, Barbarian for BAB + max health), high assumed DEX works well with anything requiring little-no armor (Monks, Rangers, spellcasters)
Specific: (see Rogue/spellcaster, Ranger)
Sorcerer: +10, d4, 2+, 6/6/12
General: Increased spell-casting ability for anything CHA-dominant (Bard, Cleric, Paladin, some Rogue) that can go without armor (Paladins should have enough health to make it work)
Specific: (see Rogue/spellcaster)
Wizard: +10, d4, 2+, 6/6/12
General: Assumed high-INT works well with high skill point classes (especially Ranger or Rogue)
Specific: (see Barbarian, Rogue/spellcaster)
A character sheet is a player's love letter to the DM. If someone wants to do something and they want to do it well, let them. Encourage them. Have fun with it. -Unknown An adventure is a DM's love letter to the players. If the DM wants something to happen in the game, let it. Encourage the DM. Have fun with it. -Centauri
I'd love for input as to what it should be rather than arguments against why I shouldn't have it at all. -lialwyn
Best defense that I've read in favor of having alignment systems as an option Spoiler:Show
However, if some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.
I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?" than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" because the former posits that improvement could be made...the latter only undermines the enjoyment of the person who is using alignment. -YagamiFire
Paladin + Sorceror gives high saves, full BAB, full casting (though a level behind the wizard), and Charisma synergy. You'll have crap for skill points, however.
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Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Buttler of the House of Trolls
Paladin + Sorceror gives high saves, full BAB, full casting (though a level behind the wizard), and Charisma synergy. You'll have crap for skill points, however.
...And since when do skill points really matter? Worst case scenario, be a human with intelligence above 10.
I'm also gonna have to bring up Druid/Cleric. And fighter is a respectable addition to just about anything.
I do love, though, how the OP was claiming rogues get "massive damage." It was lulzy.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I recently took log of this actually. Here are some good ones that RT and I found, some among the less obvious. In addition to the classic that draco1119 brings up, there are the following.
Ranger/Cloistered Cleric (Uses another UA variant) Full BAB, Full saves, amazing class skill list (6+Int skills), great Wis synergy. Only d8 hd though
Bard/Barbarian Full BAB, All good saves, amazing combat bonus's (some of which apply to allies), D12 HD, can't cast or perform while raging (song in motion remains in motion however)
Druid/Rogue All good saves, can make mad sneak attacks/round at a fairly early level (5 really), has amazing skills. Another combo with only d8 HD though, and 3/4 BAB
There's a nice list of non-core stuff we messed with as well but I'll save that.
EA, he says extra damage. They do get one of the easier access bonus damage progressions, especially when you're talking core, he also explicitly indicates a bonus to adding it onto multiple attacks. No Rogue's not amazing damage, but in a core environment when all you've really got for melee damage are Power Attack, Sneak Attack and Favored Enemy, it's pretty good.
Wildshape Ranger/Cloistered Cleric (Uses another UA variant) Full BAB, Full saves, amazing class skill list (6+Int skills), great Wis synergy,. Only d8 hd though
EA, he says extra damage. They do get one of the easier access bonus damage progressions, especially when you're talking core, he also explicitly indicates a bonus to adding it onto multiple attacks. No Rogue's not amazing damage, but in a core environment when all you've really got for melee damage are Power Attack, Sneak Attack and Favored Enemy, it's pretty good.
No, it still really isn't. Sneak attack always has been crap. It's that simple.
A Rogue's only real function is to play a wannabe wizard through UMD.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I've been toying with the idea of a streetfighter barbarian // deadly hunter druid. It doesn't really pay off until 19th level though. Still, you'd be a competent caster and ubercharger before that, so you could live to see 19th level.
I'll give you the first one. The Wildshape Ranger's a better choice than standard for that idea.
The second one though, regardless of what you say Sneak Attack is an excellent source of damage, most top end monsters for example are not immune to sneak attack, over CR 18 anyway. You add 35 damage per attack even with two weapon fighting vs a power attack of +20 damage per attack or +40 per with a two handed weapon, and you take 0 attack penalty for it. The conditions are easy to meet against most monsters as well.
Oh well, some creatures are immune. So don't put all your eggs in one basket and have the ol' UMD crutch to fall back on so you can pretend your a wizard if need be. If you want to be really weird pretend to be a wizard pretending to be a rogue, or fighter.
The second one though, regardless of what you say Sneak Attack is an excellent source of damage, most top end monsters for example are not immune to sneak attack, over CR 18 anyway. You add 35 damage per attack even with two weapon fighting vs a power attack of +20 damage per attack or +40 per with a two handed weapon, and you take 0 attack penalty for it. The conditions are easy to meet against most monsters as well.
Thirty-five damage that's beyond easy to avoid? On mediocre BAB? Especially with Two-Weapon Missing? I'll stick with a power-attacking greatsword. If your party members(Or just you, if you're clever) are doing their jobs, missing should be basically impossible.
Oh well, some creatures are immune. So don't put all your eggs in one basket and have the ol' UMD crutch to fall back on so you can pretend your a wizard if need be. If you want to be really weird pretend to be a wizard pretending to be a rogue, or fighter.
Meh. Point. I just prefer playing a wizard, rather than an easy to shut down, hideously expensive wizard.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
As someone who's put together Gestalts recently, I've got a few things to say about them. Fair warning, I avoid alternate spell systems (psionics, incarnum, ToB) like the plague. #1) Cleric/Wizard is a 1 level dip that can be VERY nice for any class combo, even if you're just after domain abilities and a Raven familiar. Fighter Feat Wizard alternate class feature and Cloistered Cleric can let these fit together better with your standing class configuration. #2) Fighter feat or vanilla Rogue is a great choice for when fighter classes have outlived their usefulness. Keep Barbarian or a prestige class around for the full BAB and bathe in those Rogue skill points and fun abilities. #3) Mixing two full casters can painfully strain your action economy. Each character can only do so many things, and I'll guarantee you that your HP will run out long before your useful spells do. #4) While the entire party taking the same 1/2 of a Gestalt (Barbarian/X, Wizard/X, Cleric/X, etc) may seem silly, it can actually be a benefit. Each member can specialize on a different aspect of that half and the ability to easily concentrate the party’s items onto the best fit for a situation is a big aid. Plus there’s the RP of it. (The Bard Brothers: Rhythm and Blues Review. Kung Fu dungeon crawl.) #5) Familiars in this enviroment are awesome. For someone with full BAB and huge hit dice, those little buggers can be almost unkillable. #6) Unthinkable things become possible. You can get into prestige classes that would otherwise violate “Thou shall never lose a caster level” by pairing them with casting progression when they would normally lose it. Rage mage being almost useful? Madness!
