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Jan 23, 2013 -- 2:43PM, powerroleplayer wrote:

I worry a bit about the 5mwd ramifications of letting you convert healing surges into action points/rerolls.  Also, renaming healing surges (and then giving them a few other uses) doesn't really fix the verisimilitude issues with them, or the hard day length cap, or make them /encounter limit on healing they way they kind of needed to be (although I suppose abstracting HP to the point of complete and utter meaninglessness and bringing back clerics who can't do anything else if they heal solves a few of those problems... yay...).  

Well for the 5MWD worry I had already included an "hour long" rest as a method to regain a point of stamina without the need of a full nights rest. This should allow PCs to adventure for as long as they wish during a single day. Also, because a PC can only spend 1 stamina in an encounter (on rerolls, second wind, or action surges), PCs would be unable to Nova and blow all their stamina at once (the other cause of the 5MWD). The healing portion of stamina allows for more total healing per day than the current 5e HD healing, so PCs will be able to push on for much longer than the current rules allow for. The hour long rest also removes the hard day length cap, while still allowing for story driven reasons to cause PCs to advance without resting.

As for cleric healing, I would much rather see cleric heals restore stamina than HP. This way in combat healing would be a very rare occurence. This makes balancing a group with and without a cleric much easier. A cure light wounds ritual might be able to restore a point of stamina out of combat and a cure light wounds spell could restore one in combat. This would make in combat healing much less mandatory for group succeess. Warlord healing could provide temp HP to differentiate the class from the cleric.

As for V-tude isses: well 5e's HD are way worse than my suggested stamina so I see my suggestion as an improvement on this front. For those who want to throw more "realism" at things though, there could be a gritty wounds module added to the game just for them.

Of the top of my head: Wounds Module
When you are dropped below 1 HP or when you suffer a critical hit you receive a wound. Each wound reduces your maximum stamina by 1. When youn maximum stamina is reduced to below 0 you die. Only magical healing and rest can restore wounds. Special: some poisons, attacks, or environmental conditions (such as falling) can cause wounds too.

Ex: Fighter has 6 stamina. He suffers 5 wounds. His maximum stamina is reduced by 5 to 1. He then suffers another critical hit that also drops him below 1 HP for 2 more wounds. His maximum stamina is reduced to -1 and he dies.

Jan 23, 2013 -- 5:39PM, Rhenny wrote:

I agree that the Con bonus to hit points adds too much, but what I'm most worried about is that in the current system, nearly every class has an incentive to begin the game with a 14 Con to get the +2 bonus at every level.   In all of the games I've DMd or played in, it is rare that a player ever chooses less for the Con score...so there is far less variability in character building.

Yup, this is how I see it too.  +Con is a problem, but the issue isn't that fighters get more HP than wizards; wizards can boost Con too.  The issue is that everyone has way more HP if they boost con.  A wizard with 18 con using the flat-4-per-level will have nearly twice as much HP as one with 10 con (1.67 times as much at level 1 and 1.93 times as much at level 20).  That's crazy!

Jan 23, 2013 -- 3:21PM, Slyck314 wrote:

This is predicated on the idea that fights will focus on Con and Wizards won't. That just wasn't a reality in the groups I played in before 4th ed. Three of the most memorable wizards I've ever played with all had cons of 18.

This, exactly this.

There are a couple scenarios I can see.

Scenario 1- HP is super important.   In this case, every class will take Con as a secondary or maybe even primary stat.  Con actually helps REDUCE the HP disparity between classes, such that fighters actually have a smaller bonus over other classes.  IMO, no problem at all in this scenario.

Scenario 2- AC is more important than HP.  This is the case where the wizard decides to take Dex as secondary stat instead of Con, because HP are not as valuable in your camp[aign for whatever reason, maybe your GM doesn't like to use area damage and he allows the tanks to hold mobs solid.  The HP disparity problem, as you stated it, isn't really a problem, because the wizard doesn't care about HP, otherwise he would have taken a higher Con.  Also, he has a very significant AC bonus for having such a high Dex, in fact mage armor + 20 dex is basically in line with heavy armor AC, so the lack of HP might not be so bad if it means monsters have trouble even hitting the wizard.  IMO, no problem at all in this scenario.

Scenario 3- HP is very important in your campaign, but your players REFUSE to treat Con as an important statistic, and instead use it as a dump stat.  The players get the extra extreme challenge they deserve for purposely nerfing themselves, and either have an exciting campaign or die quickly and learn a valuable lesson.  IMO, no problem with this scenario.

 
I just can't see a situation where HP is so super important that this is a big problem, but at the same time HP is unimportant enough that your wizards and rogues are using Con as a dump stat.  Con is an important statistic for all classes, a player who chooses to ignore it in favor of some silly glass canon build DESERVES to have a fragile character.


There is no HP/Con problem.  You can go about your business.

Jan 23, 2013 -- 2:52PM, strider13x wrote:

Didn't the early editions of the game stop or limit HP progression at 10th level? Wisdom of the ancients...

Yes.  I like this idea.  It doesn't effect the OP's argument in the slightest though, because a character with a large con will still have double or triple the HP of a character who uses con as a dump stat.  Of course my opinion is that this is working as intended.

Jan 24, 2013 -- 9:21AM, Reinhart wrote:

Jan 24, 2013 -- 8:56AM, Karnos wrote:

The players get the extra extreme challenge they deserve for purposely nerfing themselves, and either have an exciting campaign or die quickly and learn a valuable lesson.  IMO, no problem with this scenario.

 
I just can't see a situation where HP is so super important that this is a big problem . . .

There, I bolded the part in your post where it is super important. You're welcome. Not everyone who has a character with low constitution "deserves" that sort of gaming experience. In one of the most recent 3.5 games I played in my friend made an elven bard. We were rolling attributes and bards have ability score dependency for so many abilities that Con ended up his fourth priority. He ended up with a score below 10 and anything that moderately threatened our more optimized party would immediately kill his character. This was a problem for him, for his friends, and for the GM who didn't want to be randomly killing a player character with damage that would barely scathe the rest of the party. 

There are many reasonable of ways to fix this problem, but it is a problem to be fixed.

Yep, going Con tertiary or lower usually only results in a +1 bonus...at most. Many PC concepts just can't afford to boost con past 10-12.

Elven wizards (Int Dex) - notice how this allows the wizard to have AC almost as good as the fighters, great initiative, and a bonus to many good skills.

Swashbuckler Rogue (Dex Cha)

Scout Ranger (Dex Wis)

Monk (Dex Wis)

Paladin (Str Cha) 

Notice that there are no skills based on Con. So any class that gains a lot of skills is making a poor use of their abilities investing heavily in Con.

Notice that many classes need AC in light armor so must invest in a non-Con secondary.

Notice that wisdom is generally considered the second most powerful ability score due to its bonus to perception skills and that the "worst" spells tend to have wisdom saves.

Now we have the fighter who gets his heavy armor so he doesn't need Dex, he gets the least amount of skills, and no abilities keying of his other ability scores. Fighter's have the most incentive to invest Con out of anyone. Seems rather silly.