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Switch to Forum Live View Poll on what would be best for human racial abilities
4 months ago  ::  Jan 23, 2013 - 5:04PM #21
Rastapopoulos
Date Joined: Jan 2, 2013
Posts: 627


Better just leave Humans flat, and other races get bonuses/penalties comparing whether they are generally stronger or weaker in some aspect than an average human.

There is no reason for all races in the game to have ability bonuses. This just causes unnecessary inflation in numbers.
One race has to be the standard for comparison anyway (it is logical that it be humans), so just leave that race to whatever points you have distributed/rolled

Giving humans a feat or skill, however, could be a good mechanic to compensate if other races get more benefits than hindrances when compared to humans.
However, since 5ed insists that all that be "optional" on core I'm not sure what to do.


Maybe give humans a general +1 on all Ability Checks (and therefore also in skills if you're using the optional), but not on save rolls or attack rolls.
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4 months ago  ::  Jan 23, 2013 - 5:10PM #22
MechaPilot
Date Joined: Oct 5, 2007
Posts: 9,372

Jan 23, 2013 -- 5:04PM, Rastapopoulos wrote:



Better just leave Humans flat, and other races get bonuses/penalties comparing whether they are generally stronger or weaker in some aspect than an average human.

There is no reason for all races in the game to have ability bonuses. This just causes unnecessary inflation in numbers.
One race has to be the standard for comparison anyway (it is logical that it be humans), so just leave that race to whatever points you have distributed/rolled

. . .

Maybe give humans a general +1 on all Ability Checks (and therefore also in skills if you're using the optional), but not on save rolls or attack rolls.



Ok, but can't you say that about all race's ability mods?

Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad Show

Mar 4, 2012 -- 5:04PM, MechaPilot wrote:

Mar 4, 2012 -- 3:46PM, Warrant wrote:

so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.


Really?  So it goes something like this?

Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well."  Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh.  Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."


taking an argument too far Show

Apr 16, 2012 -- 9:27PM, Frostball wrote:

So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion?  Here's a scenario.  The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land.  They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges.  Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.

Part 1:  I didn't describe any of the hits.  What does he see?

Part 2:  Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up.  What does he see?



Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

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4 months ago  ::  Jan 23, 2013 - 5:27PM #23
kezzek
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 1,198
I think back to Aragorn having been raised in Rivendell by elves and the differences that made to his training and abilities.  Certainly you would expect that a human raised by orcs might be different than one raised by elves.  There are already mechanics for different subtypes as well. I think the amount of diversity and uniqueness that a more complex racial system brings is much more valuable to character development than a list of feats to pick from.  Racial differences add flavor.
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4 months ago  ::  Jan 23, 2013 - 6:31PM #24
kezzek
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 1,198

Jan 23, 2013 -- 1:32PM, Jenks wrote:

I'm down for simple races :P




The point would be that in the basic set all the racial abilities would be presented in a combined fashion such as:
Humans:
Medium size
Speed 30
+1 to one ability score
One bonus feat
Weapon training (any single weapon)
One bonus skill
One extra knowledge or profession skill
You can speak, read, and write Common plus one local dialect

It would be more complex modules where players could exchange environmental subtypes or cultures with other races to custom-build hybrid races or reveal a multicultural upbringing.

Having a set standard for racial abilities and benefits would also provide balance to each of the races.

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4 months ago  ::  Jan 23, 2013 - 9:33PM #25
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,967

Jan 23, 2013 -- 5:04PM, Rastapopoulos wrote:

Giving humans a feat or skill, however, could be a good mechanic to compensate if other races get more benefits than hindrances when compared to humans.
However, since 5ed insists that all that be "optional" on core I'm not sure what to do.


The solution actually isn't all that difficult. Just give the Human its own, unique, generic features. Here's some of what I came up with for a thread of mine from a while ago:

Endeavor: When you have advantage on any roll and you roll the same number on both d20, you can reroll one of the d20.
Flexibility:
When a class grants you an ability adjustment, you can apply the adjustment to any ability of your choice.
Heroism:
When you make an attack roll, you can always reroll a natural 1. When you force a target to make a saving throw, you can always force it to reroll a natural 20.
Humanity:
When you help another creature, the creature can instead gain advantage for the next relevant attack roll or saving throw that it makes before your next turn.

Human Spirit: Once per encounter, you can help another creature as part of another action.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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4 months ago  ::  Jan 23, 2013 - 10:20PM #26
kezzek
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 1,198

Jan 23, 2013 -- 9:33PM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Jan 23, 2013 -- 5:04PM, Rastapopoulos wrote:

Giving humans a feat or skill, however, could be a good mechanic to compensate if other races get more benefits than hindrances when compared to humans.
However, since 5ed insists that all that be "optional" on core I'm not sure what to do.


The solution actually isn't all that difficult. Just give the Human its own, unique, generic features. Here's some of what I came up with for a thread of mine from a while ago:

Endeavor: When you have advantage on any roll and you roll the same number on both d20, you can reroll one of the d20.
Flexibility:
When a class grants you an ability adjustment, you can apply the adjustment to any ability of your choice.
Heroism:
When you make an attack roll, you can always reroll a natural 1. When you force a target to make a saving throw, you can always force it to reroll a natural 20.
Humanity:
When you help another creature, the creature can instead gain advantage for the next relevant attack roll or saving throw that it makes before your next turn.

Human Spirit: Once per encounter, you can help another creature as part of another action.




Endeavor - chance of this happening is only about 5% on any advantage roll.  The benefit would therefore be about 2.5% on an advantage roll.
Flexibility - don't get this. Why would it help to apply an ability adjustment to an ability that is not suggested.
Heroism - another 3% bonus on attacks or 3% bonus against saves.
Humanity - is this an action? If so it is of dubious value. Most actions are more useful than helping another.
Human Spirit - I personally don't like encounter abilities. The idea of an encounter is too subjective to me.


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4 months ago  ::  Jan 23, 2013 - 10:36PM #27
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,967

Jan 23, 2013 -- 10:20PM, kezzek wrote:

Endeavor - chance of this happening is only about 5% on any advantage roll.  The benefit would therefore be about 2.5% on an advantage roll.
Flexibility - don't get this. Why would it help to apply an ability adjustment to an ability that is not suggested.
Heroism - another 3% bonus on attacks or 3% bonus against saves.
Humanity - is this an action? If so it is of dubious value. Most actions are more useful than helping another.
Human Spirit - I personally don't like encounter abilities. The idea of an encounter is too subjective to me.


Endeavor - Although the odds of endeavor triggering are relatively low, remember that this is just a racial feature. Most racial features that grant combat bonuses are situational and won't come up most encounters (except for weapon die bonuses, but those are terrible, so I don't count those), so while this one may have a somewhat less powerful effect than other racial features, realize that this is the case because it is less situational, something that can come up far more often than racial features usually do. I remember being told that this Endeavor, particularly combined with Heroism, was actually overpowered, though I don't know that I agree.
Flexibility - Multi-classing.
Heroism - I can't tell whether that's a criticism.
Humanity - Helping another creature is an action by default. This modifies how it can be used and is intended to be most useful when combined with the Human Spirit encounter power, which effectively removes the action requirement.
Human Spirit - I personally love encounter abilities, and I can only hope that Next brings them back. If you'll check the original link, though, this feature was part of a list of optional features (as were the encounter powers for all of the other races) so that those that weren't into that sort of thing could pick up something else instead.

Anyway, my point in posting that wasn't to say that these are the only right answers. I happen to think they're very good answers, certainly much better than most other suggestions out there, but that's not really the context in which I'm using them here. Here, I'm just using them as examples of how it's not difficult to come up with unique features for Humans, as opposed to repeating bonus skills and bonus feats again, particularly problematic in this edition considering that those mechanics are supposed to be optional.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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4 months ago  ::  Jan 24, 2013 - 5:22AM #28
Scald
Date Joined: Nov 5, 2012
Posts: 125
I voted, but I would have voted for humans to stay as they are. I have no problem with them and my group completely understand why they are like this.
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4 months ago  ::  Jan 24, 2013 - 11:59AM #29
kezzek
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 1,198

Jan 23, 2013 -- 10:36PM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Jan 23, 2013 -- 10:20PM, kezzek wrote:

Endeavor - chance of this happening is only about 5% on any advantage roll.  The benefit would therefore be about 2.5% on an advantage roll.
Flexibility - don't get this. Why would it help to apply an ability adjustment to an ability that is not suggested.
Heroism - another 3% bonus on attacks or 3% bonus against saves.
Humanity - is this an action? If so it is of dubious value. Most actions are more useful than helping another.
Human Spirit - I personally don't like encounter abilities. The idea of an encounter is too subjective to me.


Endeavor - Although the odds of endeavor triggering are relatively low, remember that this is just a racial feature. Most racial features that grant combat bonuses are situational and won't come up most encounters (except for weapon die bonuses, but those are terrible, so I don't count those), so while this one may have a somewhat less powerful effect than other racial features, realize that this is the case because it is less situational, something that can come up far more often than racial features usually do. I remember being told that this Endeavor, particularly combined with Heroism, was actually overpowered, though I don't know that I agree.
Flexibility - Multi-classing.
Heroism - I can't tell whether that's a criticism.
Humanity - Helping another creature is an action by default. This modifies how it can be used and is intended to be most useful when combined with the Human Spirit encounter power, which effectively removes the action requirement.
Human Spirit - I personally love encounter abilities, and I can only hope that Next brings them back. If you'll check the original link, though, this feature was part of a list of optional features (as were the encounter powers for all of the other races) so that those that weren't into that sort of thing could pick up something else instead.

Anyway, my point in posting that wasn't to say that these are the only right answers. I happen to think they're very good answers, certainly much better than most other suggestions out there, but that's not really the context in which I'm using them here. Here, I'm just using them as examples of how it's not difficult to come up with unique features for Humans, as opposed to repeating bonus skills and bonus feats again, particularly problematic in this edition considering that those mechanics are supposed to be optional.



I certainly appreciate originality.  Whether I like the ideas or not, they are much more original than many others that have been offered.  They give flavor that others do not and flavor is often what is most important.

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