|
4 months ago ::
Jan 29, 2013 - 10:00AM
#141
|
Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
|
I just find it extremely ironic that the system called "D&D NEXT" takes so much effort to look like old systems. It's not D&D Next, it's D&D Again, or D&D Grognard Edition. It's not even about the mechanics, it's about the attitude - instead of mitigating the "edition war", Wizards decided to switch sides.
If you can't beat them join them
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Jan 29, 2013 - 10:02AM
#142
|
Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
|
The problem with RPGs is that many people (but not you, Zard) equate good times with good design, and bad times with bad design; ignoring group dynamics, personal preferences, and other external influences. Worse, when people begin to realize that something they love is poorly designed, they resist fixing the bad parts of what they love, and instead dig in their heels, claim "my game, right or wrong!", and accept a lot of warts in an unnecessary way.
Yeah far too many people get blinded by this sort of nostalgia. It makes getting useful feedback from a playtest rather difficult, because anything that's different immediately gets labeled bad.
I think there are also far too many people who get blinded by a sickness for the present.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:22PM
#143
|
Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2013
|
The problem with RPGs is that many people (but not you, Zard) equate good times with good design, and bad times with bad design; ignoring group dynamics, personal preferences, and other external influences. Worse, when people begin to realize that something they love is poorly designed, they resist fixing the bad parts of what they love, and instead dig in their heels, claim "my game, right or wrong!", and accept a lot of warts in an unnecessary way.
Yeah far too many people get blinded by this sort of nostalgia. It makes getting useful feedback from a playtest rather difficult, because anything that's different immediately gets labeled bad.
I think there are also far too many people who get blinded by a sickness for the present.
Not to mention those who equate "old" with "bad" and, therefore, anything newer is automatically better. So much as mentioning something from older editions is enough to send them into a tirade of "LOLZ nostalgia is the stupidz". Neither desperate clinging to the past nor blindly accepting change for the sake of change is useful or helpful.
The 2 core goals of DDN:
1. Create a version of D&D that embraces the enduring, core elements of the game.
2. Create a set of rules that allows a smooth transition from a simple game to a complex one.
- Mike Mearls
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:24PM
#144
|
Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
|
The problem with RPGs is that many people (but not you, Zard) equate good times with good design, and bad times with bad design; ignoring group dynamics, personal preferences, and other external influences. Worse, when people begin to realize that something they love is poorly designed, they resist fixing the bad parts of what they love, and instead dig in their heels, claim "my game, right or wrong!", and accept a lot of warts in an unnecessary way.
Yeah far too many people get blinded by this sort of nostalgia. It makes getting useful feedback from a playtest rather difficult, because anything that's different immediately gets labeled bad.
I think there are also far too many people who get blinded by a sickness for the present.
Not to mention those who equate "old" with "bad" and, therefore, anything newer is automatically better. So much as mentioning something from older editions is enough to send them into a tirade of "LOLZ nostalgia is the stupidz". Neither desperate clinging to the past nor blindly accepting change for the sake of change is useful or helpful.
Exactly, change does not = good; just different.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:32PM
#145
|
Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2013
|
Exactly, change does not = good; just different.
Also....is it considered "nostalgia" if you still play older games and still prefer them to some of the newer ones?
The 2 core goals of DDN:
1. Create a version of D&D that embraces the enduring, core elements of the game.
2. Create a set of rules that allows a smooth transition from a simple game to a complex one.
- Mike Mearls
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:37PM
#146
|
|
|
Exactly, change does not = good; just different.
Also....is it considered "nostalgia" if you still play older games and still prefer them to some of the newer ones?
No. I believe nostalgia is all about dwelling on a time in one's past, usually centered on recreating the feelings of that time through recreating the experiences. If you play an older game because it makes you feel like a kid again, it's nostalgia; if you play it because you prefer it, it is simply personal preference.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:37PM
#147
|
Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
|
Exactly, change does not = good; just different.
Also....is it considered "nostalgia" if you still play older games and still prefer them to some of the newer ones?
Yep, yep, we all have rose-tinted glasses if we don't think the sun shines out of the latest edition of D&D's heiny.
I'm waiting for Extreme D&D (full contact?)...
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:38PM
#148
|
Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
|
If you play an older game because it makes you feel like a kid again, it's nostalgia; if you play it because you prefer it, it is simply personal preference.
What about both?
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:40PM
#149
|
|
|
If you play an older game because it makes you feel like a kid again, it's nostalgia; if you play it because you prefer it, it is simply personal preference.
What about both?
If you do it for both reasons, then it is both reasons. The same way people can play poker for fun and for profit.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Jan 29, 2013 - 1:22PM
#150
|
|
|
Yes overall our group likes it a lot and we range from teenagers to 40 somethings so new and old players.
|
|
|
