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Switch to Forum Live View CORE ONLY - Ranger/Horizon Walker
5 months ago  ::  Jan 21, 2013 - 5:15PM #1
draco1119
  • California Dragon
Date Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 14,316
I'll post a build stub tomorrow, but right now I'm looking at doing a Ranger 11/Horizon Walker 9. I plan to drop Dex, int, and CHA into a deep, dark hole and concentrate on Str, con, & wis. obviously, if I do that, I'm going the TWF route. Is that even feasible? If Dex is recommended to be higher than I plan, is TWF still better, or should I just plan on archer build?
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 21, 2013 - 6:06PM #2
EruditeApe
Date Joined: Dec 17, 2011
Posts: 1,701
I do believe the standard(and best) core Horizon Walker is Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger +2/Horizon Walker 10/X 5 and being a tripper. 

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 21, 2013 - 7:10PM #3
draco1119
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Date Joined: Sep 25, 2005
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Sweet! I was thinking of doing trips, but didn't think it fit with the "typical ranger abilities". And it's nice to know that I was on the right track with my Terrain Mastery choices; I had already decided on desert, underground, shifting, cavernous, and aligned. I'm not sure that I really care enough about cold & fire to finish off HW, though, and I'd kinda like to get the ranger's level 9 evasion ability. And maybe level 10 favored enemy bonus.
So... Now I'm kinda looking at Ranger 9/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Horizon Walker 8/Barbarian (if DM will allow Wolf Totem) or Fighter 1.  How does that seem?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same.  If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter."  -Condoleezza Rice

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 21, 2013 - 7:35PM #4
Maat_Mons
Date Joined: Oct 24, 2005
Posts: 1,544

If you fight with a greatsword, you'll deal 7+1.5*str damage on average. If you instead fight with a longsword and shortsword, you'll deal 4.5+1*str damage on average for the longsword and 3.5+0.5*str damage on average for the shortsword. That's 7.5+1.5*str damage total, which is only half a point better than the greatsword. Further, you're taking a -2 on attack rolls, so you're hitting less often and coming out worse overall.


If you have some other source of damage, like a rogue's sneak attack, the case for two-weapon fighting is better. You'll only have your weapon's enhancement bonus, extra damage from weapon special abilities, and sometimes your favored enemy bonus. Considering the -2 on attack rolls, the cost of keeping up on two magical weapons, and the opportunity cost of not getting other feats, I'd never go with the two-weapon-fighting combat style on any normal ranger.


Remember, you don't have to use a bow all the time just because you select the archery combat style. You can use a greatsword most of the time and just have the archery feats as a bonus for those occasions when you do use a bow.

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 21, 2013 - 7:51PM #5
Tempest_Stormwind
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 4,904
I'm surprised you hadn't seen the horizon tripper until now, Draco. I'm assuming you're working under very limited resources here, and if that's the case the timing is everything. Getting fighter levels earlier might make a bigger bang, particularly because most of the core feats don't scale particularly well (so getting them earlier creates a comparatively bigger "bang"). Barbarian 1 / Ranger 2 / Fighter 2 would probably be the fastest way to get everything together, but I forget offhand if that'd meet the skill requirements on its own (you might need to throw Ranger 3 at the end of that, or delay Ranger 2 to the end). It'll be difficult to get Evasion on this in any reasonable span of time.

As for combat styles, even if you're a melee focus, I support the idea of an archery combat style - especially in a core-only environment. You simply don't have enough options in that environment to pull off a pure melee strategy in every encounter you'll fight, particularly if the DM's experienced. Being competent in archery as a fallback will give you an option that's otherwise lacking in core - and if you want to look at it another way, since you're never grabbng archery feats except through Combat Style, you can ignore Point Blank Shot (and if the enemy's within 30' anyway, you've got Fast Movement and your melee weapon, so you would never use PBS anyway). Thus, Archery combat style in effect gives you two feats instead of one. 
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[TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)


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5 months ago  ::  Jan 21, 2013 - 7:54PM #6
draco1119
  • California Dragon
Date Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 14,316
Good point, Maat. BUT: does using a guisarme & spiked gauntlet benefit from TWF? Meaning, if I'm swinging with the guisarme and somebody gets close, would I normally take -5 to use the gauntlet also?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same.  If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter."  -Condoleezza Rice

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 21, 2013 - 7:58PM #7
Tempest_Stormwind
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 4,904

Jan 21, 2013 -- 7:54PM, draco1119 wrote:

Good point, Maat. BUT: does using a guisarme & spiked gauntlet benefit from TWF? Meaning, if I'm swinging with the guisarme and somebody gets close, would I normally take -5 to use the gauntlet also?



Since the reaches don't overlap, I don't know why you'd consider it a TWF style. Usually the gauntlet is just used to provide you with a threatened area (so you can take AoOs even though they're within your reach). You can't TWF with the two of them unless you're fighting an enemy 10' away while another enemy is within 5', which is, suffice it to say, a rare occasion.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows:
[TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)


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5 months ago  ::  Jan 21, 2013 - 8:11PM #8
draco1119
  • California Dragon
Date Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 14,316
You ninja'd me again, Tempest! I appreciate the feedback. To be honest, I'd remembered the Horizon Walker being one of the better melee PrCs; I'd just forgotten the "trip" part. I'm mostly just putting it together for **** & giggles.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same.  If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter."  -Condoleezza Rice

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 21, 2013 - 8:24PM #9
Tempest_Stormwind
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 4,904

Jan 21, 2013 -- 8:11PM, draco1119 wrote:

You ninja'd me again, Tempest! I appreciate the feedback. To be honest, I'd remembered the Horizon Walker being one of the better melee PrCs; I'd just forgotten the "trip" part. I'm mostly just putting it together for **** & giggles.



In the core environment it's probably the best melee prestige (although a very good case could be made for the dwarven defender in the same environment) due to the relatively easy entry requirements (a ranger splash does the trick, but you don't need too many actual ranger levels depending on your Intelligence and how much Fighter you want to use) and the unique class features (Underground and Desert are early standouts, and no one will say no to Plains after that). And then level 6 hits and you get a teleport (among other goodies as you keep going).

The trip synergy largely just works because tripping is great in Core, and Improved Trip requires a 13+ Int anyway. Rounding that off to 14 during point-buy is inexpensive and allows a single ranger level to meet the skill requirements if you time it right. More ranger levels gives you more skill points (useful particularly at the low levels, as the spells that subsume skills don't come online until later, or if you're taking the advice in the thread and cross-classing a bit of Tumble) and doesn't slow you down on the feat front (since it comes with Endurance), although it costs you some hit points if you focus on it too much; grabbing Fighter levels to pick up Combat Expertise or Combat Reflexes earlier also helps (and for variability, Endurance is also a fighter bonus feat). If you're already multiclassing your first five levels like that, barbarian is a natural fit - more for the Fast Movement than for Rage (since you can get into position quicker and you're using a core-only variant of the AoO tank), reserving Rage for serious fights (and there, the Desert mastery helps). The increased HD also offsets the ranger level(s) a bit.

It's not spectacular, but in core, very little is. The parts just happen to work well together - not in the way we usually mean when we say "synergy" (in that they don't work additively), but each part enhances something that supports something else in the build, and the costs are relatively low.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series: Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows:
[TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)


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5 months ago  ::  Jan 21, 2013 - 11:57PM #10
Vortsukoto
Date Joined: Jan 6, 2013
Posts: 131
I never understood why the Dimension Door ability of Horizon Walker was considered a good ability. Most adventuring takes place on planes that are NOT "shifting plane[s]", so it would seem to me to be a very niche ability in most games. Whenever I'd looked at it, I'd always preferred an energy resistance 20 or tremorsense 30'. Even more so in a Core game where NPCs won't be rocking the Darkstalker feat and there are a lot more ways to get eaten by a Remorhaz or hugged by a Magmin.
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