The first step is figuring out what level/tier you want it... And i'm wondering if we should continue this in another thread?
I think we're still on topic since the OP mentioned he'd be using at least elements of the approach. Ideally, I wouldn't mind coming to some decent guidelines on what those ranges are by tier (as compared to official "baseline" maybe?) and then I'll amend the above skill challenge example, with credit to you, and then I can break this into another thread that generally discusses skill challenges plus this approach at some point. Thoughts? I think balanced math plus this approach would be quite useful to the DMs here. I'm just not a math guy!
No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues. Reduce DM Prep & Increase Player Engagement:Don't Prep the Plot | Structure First, Story Last | Collaborative Roleplay | "Yes, and..." | Prep Tips Games I'm Running on Roll20: Island of the Frog | Vanguard of Dis | Star*Juice | Tesseract | The Crucible | Fimbulvetr | The Delve | Draj, City of the Moon Follow me on Twitter:@is3rith
I second the sudgestion to make them a huge size swarm, and have the represented in combat.
Letting the players spend surge(s) to give the slaves hitpoints also seems like a sound idea.
Besides any normal skill chalenges, I would add in a couple specific scenarios during combat encounters. In these encounters the slaves wouldn't be in the standard "swarm formation" they use as the players defend them. For instance;
An encounter where everyone must cross a weak bridge, that spans a ravine, or rushing river. It only holds 4 at a time, so the players must defend the front from bad guys long enuogh for everyone to cross. One player must go back and forth with them, to draw the attention of a flying or aquatic monster (or 2). Increase from 4 at a time to 5 at a time to make the minimum rounds 7 instead of 9.
In the middle of the night, the slaves begin to be lured away by will-o-wisps, the party must run back and forth between the slaves, using minor actions to snap them out of it, while trying to kill the willowisps If a slave is lured more than X squares into the forest, they are lost/eaten/whatever.
For the rest of the combat encounters, I would make them pretty standard, with the swarm huddled/defensive somewhere nearby. Have the PCs decide what move action (if any) the slaves take. The slaves initiative is rolled, but the PC's can always delay, or have the slaves delay, to get a more favorable order. Occasionally the monsters might try to move in on them, but generally the players keep the monsters attention.
In addition to this, have some random mechanic for something the slaves do every round on thier turnThe . I would recomend using a "deck of cards" or "pieces of paper in a bag" so that every effect is seen at least once. Once all of them have been used, they are replaced, and the players now "know what to expect" out of the salves in the future.
Effects would include; -A slave panics and breaks off from the group, running in a random direction! Someone grab him before he gets himself hurt! (minor action while adjacent) -A slave decides to try and be a hero, he grabs a weapon (or stick) and tries to engage the monsters! The slave has gotten the monsters attention, and must be defended before he is killed. (medium DC diplomancy or intimidate after 1 round to get him back in the swarm) -A slave hurls a stone at a monster, hitting it squarely in the eye! The monster takes X damage and is blinded until the end of it's next turn. -The slaves all panic, and run as a group to different location on the field (then they regain composure) -The slaves freeze in fear, and are imobilized until a player suceeds on a hard DC diplomacy or intimidate. -The slaves are startled and stumble over themselves, the shift one square, and take Xd6 damage as several of them are trampled in the confusion. -The slaves hurl a volley of improvised projectiles at a monster, the monster takes Xd6 (substantial) damage and is dazed until the end of it's next turn. The monster will atempt to attack the slaves for the rest of the encounter (if possible) -The slaves seem indecisive, move them to the bottom of the initiative. -The slaves seem ready for action, move them to the top of the initiative. -The slaves yell in horor, gaining the attention of all monsters for a turn. (monsters will atempt to move and attack them for at least 1 turn, and then until they are attacked by a PC) -The slaves seem to have composed themselves very well, they move 2 squares, lay prone, and stealth. Monsters must make a difficult perception check if they ever wish to try and attack them. -A slave breaks into histerics, running over to a PC and grabbing him, yelling "Save me, save me." The PC must escape the grab (difficult). -A slave is about to break under the preasure. Roll a d20, on a 5 or lower, the slave commits suicide by dagger. -A slave atempts to save his own skin, pushing another slave 4 squares toward the nearest monster. The pushed slave gains the monsters attention. -One gives first aide to another, the swarm gains 3d6 THP -The slaves chear on the party with a war-chant. All party members gain a +2 to hit until the end of the slaves next turn. -The slaves rally and charge 10 squares toward a monster. roll 1d20, on a crit, the monster is stunned (save ends), 19 or lower, and the slaves suddenly freeze with terror at the last second, leaving themselves open to the monsters next attack. -The slaves yell wildly, trying to gain the attention of the nearest PC. The yelling is distracting, and the PC has a -2 to hit until the end of his next turn. -A slave doubles over in pain, grabbing his head, as the illithid squims inside. Roll 1d20, on a 1 or 2, the slave dies, and an illithid spawn bursts from his skull. On a 3 or higher, the swarm takes 1d6 damage. -The slaves rally themselves suprisingly well. Before the end of the encounter, the next time the swarm is attacked, they automatically block/dodge the monster.
Cool, thanks. It's interesting to see it broken down like that. I guess I stumbled upon that "sweet spot" intuitively. 10's and 12's are a blindspot for me because I just don't seem to do them for whatever reason.
Ideally, I'd like to revise my skill challenge above to account for this realization. Given the setup I propose, where would you put the DCs for this 12 success skill challenge? My goal in setting those DCs (if that goes into your calculation) is to encourage but not force Aid Another/Asset.
The first step is figuring out what level/tier you want it... And i'm wondering if we should continue this in another thread?
Hey, I'm listening, so don't move the thread conversation on my account. I am absorbing the collaboration here. I am the one who will be running this skill challenge on Thurs this week!
I have to work most weekends so I drop out of the loop a little, but I'm back and paying attention.
Our game is at 9th level, 5/6 players who have the gamut of skills covered. I have also devised a list of five slaves per player that I have named and placed on cards, each player getting one card. Beside each name is a description of who that slave/thrall is/was back at the Keep. Like...
Vlad Underwood - an old hay merchant, was delivering a wagon when the Keep was attacked by orcs. Speaks proficient goblin. Missing a finger.
The idea is, that on each card will be slaves in the care of that player who have specialized skill sets like speaking another language, a former cook, a ropemaker, etc... folks who, should the players care to incorporate their skills, would give a bonus to checks also.
I have almost resigned myself to not setting an arbitrary win/fail ratio in this challenge (unless I am convinced of the faults in this way of thinking). Rather, that the party has four weeks to cross the Feywild, gain audience with the Summer Queen and then convince her to help them. Successes, wild successes, failures and setbacks will either slow or hasten their journey. So, instead of an arbitrary number set, it will be here is the calendar; let's start marking off days as they happen. You will have to rest your companions. You can't drive them without diminishing their resolve/strength/morale. The challenge is over when you reach your destination.
Ok, which opens up the other mechanic that I mentioned that I'd like to try out. Isereth, I mentioned in an early post about a "resource management" mechanic, and I wasn't very clear. (You thought I meant resources like food and water) But what I meant was a mechanic for the players to manage their rescued travellers (remember, each player has a card of five); that failed skill checks, failed objectives in combats, etc would drain from a HP pool for each slave. The idea being that throughout the journey, the slaves could be getting weaker and weaker. Driving them an extra day might make up some time, but would cost each slave/thrall one of their HP. A failed skill roll might cause that player to lose HP on some of his/her thralls (Thought about making that random, like have the player roll a D4 to see how many of his thralls lose a HP... dunno...) Also, successful skill checks (healing, resting, morale boosting song and dance, etc...) could actually give the players a chance to gain a D4 healing to disperse throughout their small party.
I thought about 5 HP for each slave/thrall. The skill challenge? Not 12 successes vs 3 failures, but, how many of these guys can the players keep alive until they reach ther destination? It's ambitious I guess, but it wouldn't be terribly complicated. I know that that's not a typical template for a skill challenge, but, I could see my players really enjoy watching out for these folks. I am definately open to input and ideas. I've already liked a lot of what I have read.
Instead of hp's consider a mechanic similar to death throws and diseases.
Evey day where the npc's get worn out (either because a skill challenge failed or because the pc's forced them to exert themselves) have the slaves roll a saving throw. Failure means they get one step closer, success means no change. A particularly easy day may mean they either automatically improve one step, or they get a chance to roll to improve one step. Also, at a certain gestation period interval (maybe 2 weeks) everyone automatically gains a failure. As you'd expect, 3 failed saves and they convert. You could even say that a nat 20 and they become cured.
This combination will ensure that each slaves will get better/worse at individual rates, but with an easy to follow mechanic...
So it seems that the trick then becomes trying to integrate this with a skill challenge? Probably best to combine this with elements of Iserith's travel challenge, while keeping the clock factor. For example failure to cross the chasm in a timely manner means that the players must make up the time by extended marching, which will force a save...
Now the hard part is determining the correct number of challenges and their dc's so that it's possible for at least most of the slaves to survive, but difficult enough to keep it interesting. Before we get into complex math, what do you think so far?
EDIT - the problem with a HP mechanic is that by RAW, every heroic teir npc/monster with 2 or more hp's has 1 healing surge. They don't have the ability to second wind, but they can use the surge if a powers lets them. Which means every night your leader jsut casts healing/majestic/whatever Word on them in succession and they are filled up with HP's. Yeah, 2 heals every 5 minutes means he can 'only' heal 24 of them in an hour. It's far too easy to keep them alive that way...
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline. -Alcestis
Overall, I'm a fan of abstraction rather than complex mechanics for the purposes of simulation which means stuff like tracking days and such isn't my bag. I won't be able to be much help there. (And I say that without judgment as to people who do. It's just harder to wrap my head around it. I know my limitations.)
I do like the disease track idea. And I also like throwing out the 12 success skill challenge in favor of something with less successes required plus overlaying the disease track idea onto the slaves. I'd like to see this further explored, even if YoungOnce isn't down with it.
How about something like this: You do an 8 success skill challenge as I have above instead of 12. That puts it into the "sweet spot" statistically. Each Complication is a group check in that skill challenge with the level of success (high, middling, or fail) being determined by majority (or a +, 0, - method). Assets get limited to the skills the slaves bring to the table, since you have them all statted up and presumably want the players to use it in their fiction. Consequences (on each failed group check) mean losing slaves by some fair resolution method. It feels a bit more meaningful and consequential to me to lose those slaves without taking saves and such - those slaves didn't make it across the chasm. Cross off their names and mourn their loss.
I also agree that the Victory and Defeat conditions could use a looking at in terms of the overaching "Travel" skill challenge. If you're losing slaves as Consequences, what does failure on the overall challenge look like? And how is it interesting?
No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues. Reduce DM Prep & Increase Player Engagement:Don't Prep the Plot | Structure First, Story Last | Collaborative Roleplay | "Yes, and..." | Prep Tips Games I'm Running on Roll20: Island of the Frog | Vanguard of Dis | Star*Juice | Tesseract | The Crucible | Fimbulvetr | The Delve | Draj, City of the Moon Follow me on Twitter:@is3rith
I also agree that the Victory and Defeat conditions could use a looking at in terms of the overaching "Travel" skill challenge. If you're losing slaves as Consequences, what does failure on the overall challenge look like? And how is it interesting?
This is why i'm a fan of tracking each slave individually. The bookeeping isn't that hard, each player has 5, so each player rolls 5d20 when it matters, and marks an X next to the guy that failed. Three X's and we have a brand new mindflayerzombie thing.
The interesting thing about this is what happens when you have a few slaves at two X's. The clock is running low, but if they fail at a certain hazard (meaning it takes too long), the players have a choice: if they press on, they might lose some of them; if they don't the clock may run out...
The end result and process to get there is much more dynamic than simply "fail to ford the river and 3 of them get washed away...sad times. Moving on".
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline. -Alcestis
This is why i'm a fan of tracking each slave individually. The bookeeping isn't that hard, each player has 5, so each player rolls 5d20 when it matters, and marks an X next to the guy that failed. Three X's and we have a brand new mindflayerzombie thing.
Okay, I think I see what you mean here. Correct me if I'm wrong: Are we definitely planning on having to "cull the herd" of mindflayerzombie things once we've completed the various Complications day by day? So final day of trip, we add up how many slaves have XXX on them and that's the battle? Or are we just marking them off completely when they've gotten their triple-X and they're "gone?"
The interesting thing about this is what happens when you have a few slaves at two X's. The clock is running low, but if they fail at a certain hazard (meaning it takes too long), the players have a choice: if they press on, they might lose some of them; if they don't the clock may run out...
The end result and process to get there is much more dynamic than simply "fail to ford the river and 3 of them get washed away...sad times. Moving on".
I can see either approach here being impactful depending on how you go about administering the skill challenge and shared storytelling.
No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues. Reduce DM Prep & Increase Player Engagement:Don't Prep the Plot | Structure First, Story Last | Collaborative Roleplay | "Yes, and..." | Prep Tips Games I'm Running on Roll20: Island of the Frog | Vanguard of Dis | Star*Juice | Tesseract | The Crucible | Fimbulvetr | The Delve | Draj, City of the Moon Follow me on Twitter:@is3rith
This is why i'm a fan of tracking each slave individually. The bookeeping isn't that hard, each player has 5, so each player rolls 5d20 when it matters, and marks an X next to the guy that failed. Three X's and we have a brand new mindflayerzombie thing.
Okay, I think I see what you mean here. Correct me if I'm wrong: Are we definitely planning on having to "cull the herd" of mindflayerzombie things once we've completed the various Complications day by day? So final day of trip, we add up how many slaves have XXX on them and that's the battle? Or are we just marking them off completely when they've gotten their triple-X and they're "gone?"
The latter, I'm seeing it more of a zombie movie thing. Once each one of them gets 3 X's, it is obvious that the mindflayer larvae has taken over and there's no real turning back. The Dm could really take the time to ham it up as a Rp experience, Maybe the first one converts overnight and attacks the party in the thier sleep. Then the second one notices he has the same symptoms when he sees a reflection of himself: his eyes are clouding up, and growths are appearing on his chin. He tears up and in a choked raspy voice turns to the party and says "kill me before i turn" ... Mechanically this is as easy as a coup de grace, but there really isn't a need for combat (rolling init to kill 1-2 minions seems like a waste of everyone's time)...
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline. -Alcestis
The latter, I'm seeing it more of a zombie movie thing. Once each one of them gets 3 X's, it is obvious that the mindflayer larvae has taken over and there's no real turning back. The Dm could really take the time to ham it up as a Rp experience, Maybe the first one converts overnight and attacks the party in the thier sleep. Then the second one notices he has the same symptoms when he sees a reflection of himself: his eyes are clouding up, and growths are appearing on his chin. He tears up and in a choked raspy voice turns to the party and says "kill me before i turn" ... Mechanically this is as easy as a coup de grace, but there really isn't a need for combat (rolling init to kill 1-2 minions seems like a waste of everyone's time)...
Okay, I understand now. You're right, I wouldn't do it as a combat "in that moment."
But you could keep it abstract and have the players know what's going to happen just before they reach the gates of the Summer Court, even if their characters aren't sure. Then based upon the number of slaves that "turned" (some minimum threshold required, otherwise it's handwaved as you say), you could have some kind of encounter and not all would have to be minions. There's nothing to suggest they aren't standards or elites that could comprise a challenging final encounter. Just an idea.
No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues. Reduce DM Prep & Increase Player Engagement:Don't Prep the Plot | Structure First, Story Last | Collaborative Roleplay | "Yes, and..." | Prep Tips Games I'm Running on Roll20: Island of the Frog | Vanguard of Dis | Star*Juice | Tesseract | The Crucible | Fimbulvetr | The Delve | Draj, City of the Moon Follow me on Twitter:@is3rith
But having them all turn at the goal's doorstep just seems cheesy. I think the tension would be better if the actual consequences are played out over a few sessions....
Besides in the real world, people get sick and heal at different rates. It's a very relatable thing, to see someone so incredibly sick they can't really be moved. But if you don't move them (across 200 miles of feywilde), they die. Heehee, What's a pc to do?
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline. -Alcestis
