Instead of hp's consider a mechanic similar to death throws and diseases.
Evey day where the npc's get worn out (either because a skill challenge failed or because the pc's forced them to exert themselves) have the slaves roll a saving throw. Failure means they get one step closer, success means no change. A particularly easy day may mean they either automatically improve one step, or they get a chance to roll to improve one step. Also, at a certain gestation period interval (maybe 2 weeks) everyone automatically gains a failure. As you'd expect, 3 failed saves and they convert. You could even say that a nat 20 and they become cured.
This combination will ensure that each slaves will get better/worse at individual rates, but with an easy to follow mechanic...
So it seems that the trick then becomes trying to integrate this with a skill challenge? Probably best to combine this with elements of Iserith's travel challenge, while keeping the clock factor. For example failure to cross the chasm in a timely manner means that the players must make up the time by extended marching, which will force a save...
Now the hard part is determining the correct number of challenges and their dc's so that it's possible for at least most of the slaves to survive, but difficult enough to keep it interesting. Before we get into complex math, what do you think so far?
EDIT - the problem with a HP mechanic is that by RAW, every heroic teir npc/monster with 2 or more hp's has 1 healing surge. They don't have the ability to second wind, but they can use the surge if a powers lets them. Which means every night your leader jsut casts healing/majestic/whatever Word on them in succession and they are filled up with HP's. Yeah, 2 heals every 5 minutes means he can 'only' heal 24 of them in an hour. It's far too easy to keep them alive that way...
Onikani and Isereth... thanks for being an awesome brain trust on this skill challenge. I love it that you both bring different strengths to this conversation.
Okani, I like this idea... makes sense to have the save throws against the disease. I really have to start thinking about the numbers and how to balance the difficulty of managing the timeline. We have already established in our story that the party has four weeks before the "osmosis" will be complete. I guess I need to establish how long it would take to travel to Senaliesse with no setbacks (say two weeks?), then break down the skill rolls into periodic disease checks?
If you were to propose a methodology, what structure would you look at? (assuming that a skill challenge with travel complications and companion deterioration would be something that the players might enjoy) If I tried the typical skill challenge structure with a 8/3 ratio, would you...
1. Present skill challenge to group from our list (chasm/river crossing, murder of fey crows, storm, etc)
2. Resolve with success or failure: success: (pick up some time, gain + to disease roll, gain successful disease roll, etc) Failure: (get lost, penalty to disease roll, combat, etc)
3. Have players roll for their "team", mark successes and setbacks (If a crit 20 auto heals thrall, would you have a crit 1 turn him? Why not!)
4. Rinse and repeat until they arrive before Tiandra.
Or, if I pursued the non-typical structure of no success/failure ratio, but, tried the "You have four weeks before your thralls are turned. The Summer Queen is two-weeks journey, if all goes well, but it won't all go well..." how would you mark the time?
1. Roll to see if something complicates the party's travel day maybe? (What would be a good ratio that would be fair. They shouldn't have to have a major roadblock every day. What if for each day that nothing happens, the group accumulates a bonus to their disease/morale/strength rolls on the next challenge? Too much?) If something occurs, then present skill challenge to group from our list (chasm/river crossing, murder of fey crows, storm, etc)
2. Resolve with success or failure: success: (pick up some time, gain + to disease roll, gain successful disease roll, etc) Failure: (get lost, penalty to disease roll, combat, etc)
3. Have players roll for their "team", mark successes and setbacks (If a crit 20 auto heals thrall, would you have a crit 1 turn him? Why not!)
4. Rinse and repeat until they arrive before Tiandra.
I am with your ideas so far. Isereth's too. Like you said, to integrate the math to be fair and not too hard with Isereth's travel skill challenge could be a marriage made in heaven. To answer Isereth's last question, I think that Success or Failure may or may not be complete, i.e. will the players keep everyone alive and get them back to their families? (The players already saved these NPCs loved ones... these are just the male slaves that they are trying to return) It could be that they save most but not all of the men. It could be that they save only a few or could even get them all killed. How will their reputation take that? Will they be heroes or reviled? Will it be a success if they save only one? I think that this will most likely be a matter of degree in success or failure, and how the people around them respond to their efforts. I could see that being very interesting. I think that my players would too.
But having them all turn at the goal's doorstep just seems cheesy. I think the tension would be better if the actual consequences are played out over a few sessions....
Besides in the real world, people get sick and heal at different rates. It's a very relatable thing, to see someone so incredibly sick they can't really be moved. But if you don't move them (across 200 miles of feywilde), they die. Heehee, What's a pc to do?
I'm getting giddy just thinking about the quandry my players will see in all of this.
Okani, I like this idea... makes sense to have the save throws against the disease. I really have to start thinking about the numbers and how to balance the difficulty of managing the timeline. We have already established in our story that the party has four weeks before the "osmosis" will be complete. I guess I need to establish how long it would take to travel to Senaliesse with no setbacks (say two weeks?), then break down the skill rolls into periodic disease checks?
How long it takes to get there under perfect circumstances will be determined by the skill challenge you use. If the challenge is just to get there and not have the slaves get eaten by feywilde beasts, then it doesn't really matter if it takes the party 2 weeks or 3 weeks. This seems to be the case in your first example (quoted below).
I am assuming that the 1 month gestation was set in the default world, in which case you could say that the magic of the feywilde is causing the larvae to grow faster in some slaves than others. This not only sets the mood for the urgency, but it gives a bit of legitimacy to the disease mechanic i mentioned before (the second example, also below).
If you were to propose a methodology, what structure would you look at? (assuming that a skill challenge with travel complications and companion deterioration would be something that the players might enjoy) If I tried the typical skill challenge structure with a 8/3 ratio, would you...
1. Present skill challenge to group from our list (chasm/river crossing, murder of fey crows, storm, etc)
2. Resolve with success or failure: success: (pick up some time, gain + to disease roll, gain successful disease roll, etc) Failure: (get lost, penalty to disease roll, combat, etc)
3. Have players roll for their "team", mark successes and setbacks (If a crit 20 auto heals thrall, would you have a crit 1 turn him? Why not!)
4. Rinse and repeat until they arrive before Tiandra.
for a typical challenge with a 8/3 ratio, the mechanics you're describing are at odds with the final outcome (yes i realized we've discussed them but hear me out). The party meets a challenge as presented (ravine, crows, whatever). They fail, they lose time, they 'forced march' to make up some time, slaves make a save. Well, statistically only 50% of the slaves get an X. We march on, second challenge, second failure, second strenuous day making up time, second set of throws. 25% of the slaves still don't have a mark, 50% of them have exactly 1 mark, and 25% of them have 2 marks. After the third challenge? 12.5% still don't have a mark, and 12.5% are converted. The other 75% have either 1 or 2 marks, but it doesn't matter because technically the skill challenge is over.
But why? The group has not lost any time, since they walked extra hours to make up the time they 'lost'. And only 2 of the slaves have died. So why is the challenge over? Have they finally arrived? And if they can arrive there by failing all 3 challenges with only 2-3 of the slaves dying, then why bother with the challenge?
By the way, in reference to number 3, i would not have a 1 be an autoconvert, jsut as i don't have a 1 be an autodeath when a player is making death throws. This version of the diesease mechanic is meant to mimic the death throw mechanic. Which is why 1-10 is a worsening of the condition, and 11-19 is no change. A roll of 20 should be a benefit, if not an immediate cure, then at least the removal of an X (or the slave is cured if he roll a 20 while having zero X's).
Or, if I pursued the non-typical structure of no success/failure ratio, but, tried the "You have four weeks before your thralls are turned. The Summer Queen is two-weeks journey, if all goes well, but it won't all go well..." how would you mark the time?
1. Roll to see if something complicates the party's travel day maybe? (What would be a good ratio that would be fair. They shouldn't have to have a major roadblock every day. What if for each day that nothing happens, the group accumulates a bonus to their disease/morale/strength rolls on the next challenge? Too much?) If something occurs, then present skill challenge to group from our list (chasm/river crossing, murder of fey crows, storm, etc)
2. Resolve with success or failure: success: (pick up some time, gain + to disease roll, gain successful disease roll, etc) Failure: (get lost, penalty to disease roll, combat, etc)
3. Have players roll for their "team", mark successes and setbacks (If a crit 20 auto heals thrall, would you have a crit 1 turn him? Why not!)
4. Rinse and repeat until they arrive before Tiandra.
Time moves at the speed of plot... if you are allowing the larvae to develop at a different rate in the feywilde than you can do whatever you want with the timeline. I recommend this approach since it's the only real way to have people getting sick at drastically different rates. If this is the actual case, then the one month deadline becomes arbitrary since there is no garentee that the slaves will last that long.
In this model, the goal realistically isn't to get there within a month; it's to get there as fast as possible. So we don't have a typical success/failure model. But if the players always take their sweet time, and avoid stressful situations then there is no mechanical reason to rush. This is why i suggested having every slave automatically acquire an X at certain time intervals. The players will realize that the disease is progressing at a steady rate (which gets amplified through strenuous days) and will continually have to adjust their strategy to the current situation. Thus, this model means that each failure means that some measure of time was wasted. So the pc's have a choice: attempt to regain that time through strenous action (causing half the slaves to gain an X) or sit back and hope they make it to the destination before the next disease interval (when ALL of the slaves gain an X).
But we need to have it tied to some kind of timeline so we know what the absolute maximum amount of time they can take is... So you've mentioned you'ld like to keep it to a 2 week journey, and we'll set the new 'feywilde' incubation period at like 6-7 days. Give them like 7 challenges; every failed challenge sets them back a day (it took 1 day to get down the ravine, and another to get back up, so we're a day behind now). This way the players can fail up to 2 without feeling the need to make up time. In fact they can fail all 7 of them, but then they have to double time for 7 days, to ensure they still arrive before day 18. Sadly, this will result in a loss of most (if not all) of the slaves. Somewhere in the middle is where tension will be high since their decisions will have a very definate effect on how many live or die....
I am with your ideas so far. Isereth's too. Like you said, to integrate the math to be fair and not too hard with Isereth's travel skill challenge could be a marriage made in heaven. To answer Isereth's last question, I think that Success or Failure may or may not be complete, i.e. will the players keep everyone alive and get them back to their families? (The players already saved these NPCs loved ones... these are just the male slaves that they are trying to return) It could be that they save most but not all of the men. It could be that they save only a few or could even get them all killed. How will their reputation take that? Will they be heroes or reviled? Will it be a success if they save only one? I think that this will most likely be a matter of degree in success or failure, and how the people around them respond to their efforts. I could see that being very interesting. I think that my players would too.
IMO, The marriage of the two is basically using Isereth's ideas about the types of encounters with my idea of the disease mechanic. The time mechanic is a combination of the 3 of us. Then the only trick is setting up the numbers so everything lines up correctly: Your basic goal is to have the pc's feel the need to get there without wasting time. We got this covered, and we've even fixed the need for there to be an absolute deadline (trust me, the players are going to try their damnedest to get there in as short a time as possible).
The awesome thing about setting the challenge up this way is that you will almost certainly have partial success. As long as the players succeed on a few of the challenges, at least some of the slaves will live...and how well the hero's are recieved for it, could also depend on that number.
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline. -Alcestis
I second the sudgestion to make them a huge size swarm, and have the represented in combat.
Letting the players spend surge(s) to give the slaves hitpoints also seems like a sound idea.
Besides any normal skill chalenges, I would add in a couple specific scenarios during combat encounters. In these encounters the slaves wouldn't be in the standard "swarm formation" they use as the players defend them. For instance;
An encounter where everyone must cross a weak bridge, that spans a ravine, or rushing river. It only holds 4 at a time, so the players must defend the front from bad guys long enuogh for everyone to cross. One player must go back and forth with them, to draw the attention of a flying or aquatic monster (or 2). Increase from 4 at a time to 5 at a time to make the minimum rounds 7 instead of 9.
In the middle of the night, the slaves begin to be lured away by will-o-wisps, the party must run back and forth between the slaves, using minor actions to snap them out of it, while trying to kill the willowisps If a slave is lured more than X squares into the forest, they are lost/eaten/whatever.
For the rest of the combat encounters, I would make them pretty standard, with the swarm huddled/defensive somewhere nearby. Have the PCs decide what move action (if any) the slaves take. The slaves initiative is rolled, but the PC's can always delay, or have the slaves delay, to get a more favorable order. Occasionally the monsters might try to move in on them, but generally the players keep the monsters attention.
In addition to this, have some random mechanic for something the slaves do every round on thier turnThe . I would recomend using a "deck of cards" or "pieces of paper in a bag" so that every effect is seen at least once. Once all of them have been used, they are replaced, and the players now "know what to expect" out of the salves in the future.
Effects would include; -A slave panics and breaks off from the group, running in a random direction! Someone grab him before he gets himself hurt! (minor action while adjacent) -A slave decides to try and be a hero, he grabs a weapon (or stick) and tries to engage the monsters! The slave has gotten the monsters attention, and must be defended before he is killed. (medium DC diplomancy or intimidate after 1 round to get him back in the swarm) -A slave hurls a stone at a monster, hitting it squarely in the eye! The monster takes X damage and is blinded until the end of it's next turn. -The slaves all panic, and run as a group to different location on the field (then they regain composure) -The slaves freeze in fear, and are imobilized until a player suceeds on a hard DC diplomacy or intimidate. -The slaves are startled and stumble over themselves, the shift one square, and take Xd6 damage as several of them are trampled in the confusion. -The slaves hurl a volley of improvised projectiles at a monster, the monster takes Xd6 (substantial) damage and is dazed until the end of it's next turn. The monster will atempt to attack the slaves for the rest of the encounter (if possible) -The slaves seem indecisive, move them to the bottom of the initiative. -The slaves seem ready for action, move them to the top of the initiative. -The slaves yell in horor, gaining the attention of all monsters for a turn. (monsters will atempt to move and attack them for at least 1 turn, and then until they are attacked by a PC) -The slaves seem to have composed themselves very well, they move 2 squares, lay prone, and stealth. Monsters must make a difficult perception check if they ever wish to try and attack them. -A slave breaks into histerics, running over to a PC and grabbing him, yelling "Save me, save me." The PC must escape the grab (difficult). -A slave is about to break under the preasure. Roll a d20, on a 5 or lower, the slave commits suicide by dagger. -A slave atempts to save his own skin, pushing another slave 4 squares toward the nearest monster. The pushed slave gains the monsters attention. -One gives first aide to another, the swarm gains 3d6 THP -The slaves chear on the party with a war-chant. All party members gain a +2 to hit until the end of the slaves next turn. -The slaves rally and charge 10 squares toward a monster. roll 1d20, on a crit, the monster is stunned (save ends), 19 or lower, and the slaves suddenly freeze with terror at the last second, leaving themselves open to the monsters next attack. -The slaves yell wildly, trying to gain the attention of the nearest PC. The yelling is distracting, and the PC has a -2 to hit until the end of his next turn. -A slave doubles over in pain, grabbing his head, as the illithid squims inside. Roll 1d20, on a 1 or 2, the slave dies, and an illithid spawn bursts from his skull. On a 3 or higher, the swarm takes 1d6 damage. -The slaves rally themselves suprisingly well. Before the end of the encounter, the next time the swarm is attacked, they automatically block/dodge the monster.
Hey Vitamin, there are a lot of great ideas to incorporate into the skill challenge in here. I was definatley thinking of an old rope swinging bridge over a ravine too! I like the mechanics ideas too... Since my game is tomorrow, I'm trying now to get all of this into a coherent package...
This got a bit away from me and I'm catching up. It looks like you have everything you need ahead of tomorrow's game. If you end up using the skill challenge format/process I suggested, please let me know how it goes. It works really well for our groups and sounds like it would for yours as well. Good luck!
No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues. Reduce DM Prep & Increase Player Engagement:Don't Prep the Plot | Structure First, Story Last | Collaborative Roleplay | "Yes, and..." | Prep Tips Games I'm Running on Roll20: Island of the Frog | Vanguard of Dis | Star*Juice | Tesseract | The Crucible | Fimbulvetr | The Delve | Draj, City of the Moon Follow me on Twitter:@is3rith
Yeah. there's a lot of good stuff all over this thread!
If you can get some kind of something together tonight, i'll take a good look at the math. Otherwise, good luck and let us know how it went!
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline. -Alcestis
