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Switch to Forum Live View Epic Tier Combat Difficulty advice
5 months ago  ::  Jan 19, 2013 - 5:03AM #31
Matyr
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 2,726
Honestly I've never had a problem challenging the PCs in combat.  Should every combat be kill-em all?  No.  Should some of the combats be "kill-em all"?  Sure.  You should have the ability to threaten an Epic level PC's hit points.  Now, by that time they should be really invested in a whole ton of other stuff you can threaten, but the card should be on the table.

Epic Level enemies should be unfair.  Epic level enemies should use paragon level enemies like terrain (and they should function like terrain similar to their counterparts.  If you are fighting the lord of the dead while jumping on the heads of his amassed undead horde, it should feel like it.  The key isn't challenging the PCs at a certain level (honestly, take exp budget and throw it out the window.  Just make sure you keep it somewhere in the level of reasonable for your party), it should be making the encounter not last 10 years.  Yeah a party of 5 could take 20 at-level standards, but that would take forever.

Here is what I do for epic level combat:
1) Preroll trivial things in the encounter.  Or completely make up different things that might be a roll and have a sheet of numbers in front of you that you are crossing out.

2) Simplify: In the above example the zombie horde "terrain" does damage and other effects.  Roll a d6 and use that for if the player is effected by the "terrain enemy".  Figure out what the defense that terrain is attacking and order the PCs from lowest defense to highest defense (keep it on a side sheet nearby).  At Terrain initiative and when the player triggers it roll a d6.  If that PC is that number of lower they get effected.  So if the terrain "attacks" reflexes then the person who has the lowest reflex is going to get constantly hit by those effects (he only gets missed on a 1) and the highest person will only have a 1/6 chance of being hit.  Have it do static or prerolled damage and effects.  Avoid save-ends as it can clutter the field if you are using an army they are wading through.

3) Simplify: Everything in the encounter should do the same dice.  No exceptions.

4) Be unfair, but fairly: Use mechanics like "when effected by X you take double damage from all sources."  Let them know the triggers and how to avoid them.  Weaken and the double damage effect are your friend.  Avoid using weaken or insubstantial too terribly much, but keep it on the list.

5) Stop player turns: The best epic monsters won't be chained from full health to dead in a flurry of blows.  All of your elites should function like mini-solos and be able to push/pull/slide/teleport/daze/cripple your multiattackers should they hope to survive.  Your solos should be able to banish players into an extra diminsional pocket for a turn for causing them problems.

6) Attack their resources liberally.  Epic level "minion" fights should steal healing surges on a regular basis, sometimes two at a time.

7) Once death is not a true kill, introduce them to stuff that will completely kill them no-questions asked if they fall victim to a particular attack.

8) Steal mechanics from anything you can:  Especially from games that require a lot of timing and/or teamwork.  One of my monsters was stolen directly from Brutallus and did extreme damage in a blast in front of him.  The damage increased by 1 increment for every PC not caught in the blast area.  So with 5 PCs he was doing x4 damage to the one PC.  If you have these mechanics they should either be survivable, researchable or they should have lesser versions on the littles before they face Big Bad.

9) Incapacitate the Leader: The leader should be the engine for your party.  Sometimes the best thing an enemy controller can do to your party is remove the leader from the fight for a round.

10) Don't include Lurkers in your budget:  Include them in the powers of the creatures.  Epic enemies should be able to summon forces, create primordial shadows or literally call down the heavens on you.  Being able to summon low health high damaging monsters can really hurt a group if they leave anything alive after the alpha strike.

11) Shield your minions: Make your minions take 3 hits.  A hit of X threshold counts as 2 hits, a hit of X*3 counts as a one shot.  At epic level this should roughly be your level.  So a minion takes 3 hits of anything, 1 hit of 21-60 and one other hit or a single hit of 60 or more.

12) Fight in Waves:  Again people can summon minions from anywhere, don't have the encounters be single things most of the time.  Have them be part of a world where portals in and out of combat can be common.

Edit - Clarified some things and:
13) Every now and again, after you have set the bar, lower it a bit.  Your players should still have the ability to turn some baddies into red mist and walk through an encounter.  You are epic, if you aren't fighting a climactic epic battle, no need to be stopped doing everything. -Compliments Fardiz
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 19, 2013 - 5:23AM #32
GenericOctopus
Date Joined: Jun 11, 2010
Posts: 21
Awesome responses guys, really do appreciate the discussion here.

Think Onikani & Erachima pretty much have it nailed; will make sure my group gets their eyes on this thread, there's lots I'm learning from it. Also thanks dave2008 for the links; Sly Flourish has been recommended to me a couple times in the past few days, looks like it has some good ideas.

I'll probably just direct our DM to this forum, I get the feeling it's easier to step things up from the DM's end rather than trying to de-op characters at the same time; y'know, start balancing the scale from one end rather than both.


Just refreshed before posting: wow Matyr, great post. Definitely gotta make sure the DM sees it, all that stuff sounds rad as hell.
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 24, 2013 - 3:58AM #33
Winterhaven_Regular
Date Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Posts: 136
I have run tons of epic 4e. It works, but you have to tweak it. I had Three PCs slaughtering E1-E3 as written!

You should tell your DM your concerns. Then, it is his/her job to fix it. For this DM:

First... you have to use updated stats from the Monster Vault. You just can not use MM1 stuff. Way too many hit points and way, way wayyyyyy too low damage. DDI is $10 a month. It is so worth it just for the adventure tools. Every monster ever published for 4e. Just search them by level and book (use more recent books obviously). It is also very easy to update old monster stats (less HP and much more damage!).

Second, combats take longer. So have less of them per adventure, but give out more XP (you'll be breaking your budget to challenge your PCs anyway).

Third, use solos very sparingly. Solos mostly do not work against epic parties. In order for a solo to be a challenge, you're going to need to cook up mechanics to eliminate daze, stun, every debilitating condition (use the monster vault dragons as a guide). Definitely give your solos two turns per round! In general, use lots of monsters rather than one or two. Also, do not trust the WOTC stats for major NPCs! My party slaughtered Vecna. Yes, VECNA. They were BORED fighting Vecna!

Fourth, keep in mind that 4e epic design didn't seem to take into account the fact that your players have been building these pcs as a TEAM and are a finely honed nuclear bomb by epic tier. In my Scales of War campaign, the warden and fighter's marks had my bad guys on lockdown. It was insane. Keep your players powers in mind. Sometimes, have creatures or terrain that can get around their stuff (I'd give monsters teleport to circumvent marking). Other times, throw creatures at them that are completely vulnerable to their gimmicks (players love that so much). Feed them some easy ones and watch their faces hahhaa. They'll be in heaven.

Fifth, definitely throw hordes and hordes of minions at them! There are some epic minions that blow up and do extra damage when they die, which is awesome and lethal. There's some that explode and blind you, which in my experience just made things really slow and frustrating (partly depending on how you handle blindness in your game).

Sixth, keep fine-tuning your encounters. Make them harder and harder until you hit the right balance. That's the biggest one. Run your encounter and pay attention to what is too easy. Throw out the XP guidelines if necessary! Do all the nutty epic stuff you can think of: A fight during a free-fall, a fight on rocks in a lava flow, a fight deep underwater, a fight using the natural flight granted in the astral sea (check out the Fortress of Three Sorrows insane set-piece battle in the adventure called Tyranny of Souls from dungeon magazine), a fight in the middle of a raging storm in the elemental chaos, or a fight near the heart of the abyss where everything slowly comes apart (including the PCs' stuff, I think this encounter was in E3).

And lastly, never ever use monsters that are lower level than the PCs. This came up in Scales of War a bunch of times, and it made for a crappy encounter every single time.

It is nice to hear there are players out there who want a challenge!
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