Thanks seeron, thats the most helpful response I've gotten.
If that is the most helpful then I guess there is no need to leave my posts so clearly visible. Minimalistic appears to be good although if you are seeking answers you need the right questions.
It's not up to us to interrogate you - if you're looking for help, you ask for it. It's the forum etiquitte equivalent of Burden of Proof.
The player who is aiming for a Paladin of Tyranny may want to consider the usual "debuffer" approach instead: Hexblade 4 (using PHB2's Dark Companion alternate class feature) mixed with Paladin of Tyranny 2 (for Aura of Despair) for two separate no-save ways to lower their saving throws. This also gives you some serious power on your Charisma (as it adds to all your saving throws, and again to all your saving throws vs spells, and you've got Mettle to negate fortitude and will effects), and you pack a once-a-day curse to use on serious fights for even more mechanical edge. You can go even further if you mix in pact magic - a small investment in Binder or feats from the Tome of Magic can get you a pact with Focalor (for another save-reducing aura), while a bigger investment can get you Chupoclops (for a bigger aura and better combat abilities). The Dead for Nothing link in my signature includes my character Hadyn, who is an effort to do this in a single class (I'm not taking the paladin of tyranny because the character in question isn't actually Evil, among other reasons, but I'm making do with a single-classed hexblade.)
"Skill Monkey" is largely a role that can be absorbed by other roles rather than raw skill points, eventually, but at the levels you're talking about, you can't do better than a single-classed Factotum (Dungeonscape) with heavy Intelligence and as many Font of Inspiration feats as possible. There's also a few builds in my signature, such as the Uncanny Trapsmith, Flip the Bird, the Chaingun Porcupine, or Always on Edge, which can fit this bill as well.
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
I didn't say your suggestions were bad steve. I appreciate your critique of my overall plan and your archer idea but they weren't quite as helpful as a specific feat suggestion. Lighten up bro, we're all friends here. To simplify everything:
I am looking for class ideas for a level 1-20 (prestige classes as well) that will give a non-caster the ability to take down casters with ease.
I am also looking for a skill monkey/silent killer prestige class that maintains the rogue skills but offers a little more killing potential. Assassin from the DMG has all the skills and adds some killing potential but I was wondering if there were any others that might be more efficient killers.
I am also looking at race and feat ideas for both
3.5 books only, no homebrew, no dragon magazine, and please tell me the books everything is in so I can look them up myself
Thanks tempest, the hexblade idea is really helpful. I like the pact magic idea but that will probably fry my DM's brain. Factotum looks cool and I completely forgot about Dungeonscape. I'll pitch the suggestions to my friends and see what they think, thanks again for all the help and I will do my best to be less obtuse in the future. Sorry for all the confusion.
Sorry, I've had some bad experiences around here with certain members lately and "hit something with a big weapon using things that increase damage against a certain type of character" is a little obvious. Also, getting specific suggestions requires getting specific questions which were in short supply; as Tempest mentions it shouldn't be our job to interrogate you to get the information you want to help yourself.
Now I'll be honest, I don't do a lot of builds here in large part because I don't "optimize" to nearly the degree that some do. If you're looking for nuts builds I believe Tempest's signature will take you to a bunch of highly optimized builds which can lead you to what you want. I will address your list of "requests" however:
1. There really isn't any "non-caster" that can take a waiting/prepared caster down "with ease." If you're not multiclassing that task becomes a lot harder as the full casters are considered to top of the class-power line even when they don't use multiclassing. Taking a caster down "with ease" requires hitting them fast, hard, and perhaps most importantly unexpectedly.
2. The most efficient way to kill another character is to simply catch it in a "helpless" situation and slit its throat (coup-de-grace). Great combat ability is not what makes a great assassin rather it is the ability to strike when someone is completely unprepared for it.
Again I apologize for being vague, it was not my intent. I didn't think there were any that fit the criteria in your #1 but I figured if there were sombody on here would know. but you make a good point in #2. Since we're evil there is no reason to take our opponents head on. Thanks for the advice.
-There isn't a single good anitmage option short of an Antimagic Field, which messes with you usually around as much as it messes with them. Basically, the best way to fight a spellcaster is to be another spellcaster - and even then, as levels and player proficiency increase, it frequently reaches the point where the best way to fight another spellcaster is to not fight the other spellcaster, since an all-out fight would be too dangerous for both parties due to layers upon layers of divination and contingency effects (and therefore it kind of plays out like this, in a manner of speaking, in that it doesn't actually play out).
The usual optimization forums are down due to attacks recently, so I can't link to the proof, but basically, spellcasters are much stronger than you give them credit. The classes are not all on the same tier power-wise. Some are quite capable of reshaping reality at a thought, while others can barely look menacing with a sword. The levels where tier differences begin to get really pronounced for the first time are, interestingly, somewhere in the 5-7 range if you're taking it slow (you can make it pronounced at level 1 if you try, where a fighter might be able to hit for 2 extra points of damage but a wizard could instantly end an entire fight in one spell, possibly with no save).
-If you're looking for a nonspellcaster who can quickly assassinate individuals, I'd suggest the Tome of Battle as a starting point, as I usually do. Swordsages there are wonderfully versatile classes and can make pretty decent assassins all on their own - and you can increase this by looking at monk feats of all things. (Classic mid-level example: Shadow Stride maneuver to teleport next to the target as a move action, Sun School: Flash of Sunset tactical feat to deliver a free unarmed attack, augmented with Freezing the Lifeblood, which adds a paralysis effect to your Stunning Fist, follow up using the Death Blow feat to perform a coup de grace against the paralyzed target as a standard action. Still leaves your swift action open for a boost, stance-switching, or allows you to do this if you countered last round). You'll note this doesn't rely on things like Death Attack (which has too low a DC and takes too long of a warm-up to really be worth it) nor does it rely on precision damage (as if you want to really kill something, you find a way to ignore its hit points rather than whittling them down in a slugfest). This does rely on an opportunistic attack, but it also creates its own opportunities, and remains useful outside of those areas as well.
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
