I am using the monster advancer but apparently it does not account for Epic Dragons at all. or for any adjustment over hit dice.
That is why I ask the community to advance some dragons for me, I am getting very confused and ultimately I cannot do it
I need advancement for Shadow, Red, Gold and Time Dragon.
Time Dragon (Dragon 359 for the actual stats): advanced to level 144
Shadow, Gold and Red Dragon: Advanced to levels 50 and 55 (stats found in Draconomicon for their Great Wyrm level)
can someone help me? thanks in advance!
I don't do epic so I may not be any help but what do you mean when you say "advanced to level" 144, 50, or 55? Are you looking for those creatures to be advanced to that many HD? Where there Equivalent Character Level (ECL) would be that high? To where there CR is that high? There are unfortunately many ways to look at "level" in the game.
I also wonder how you want them advanced. As dragons or are you advancing them with class levels? Advancing them with racial HD is actually pretty easy because racial HD are not subjected to the Epic rules regarding BAB and Save. I do seem to remember seeing somewhere that creatures can look an their HD to determine eligability requirements for Epic feats (Epic is 21+ HD) although even if you just let creatures with CR 20+ access epic feats that should be easy enough for a dragon.
Although it may seem completely irrelevant I'd point out that the Great Wyrm Red and Gold dragons are already "epic"challenges. At old age (and gargantuan size) the Gold Dragon passes CR 20 and at great wyrm is CR 27. The same is true for the Red Dragon although it is only CR 26 as a Great Wyrm.
I meant them to advance to that Hit Dice.
when I mean advanced I mean this
also found in the epic rules handbook.
I'm still not sure what you're looking for but I'll say I'm not about to try and completely fill out the sheet for an epic dragon. Now using the information in that link is this the kind of "help" you are looking for?
Epic Gold Dragon (age category 16) CR 35
HD 55d12+825 (1183 hp ave)
STR 55, DEX 10 CON 41, INT 36, WIS 37, CHA 36
Saves: Fort +44, REF +29, WILL +42
Breat Weapon 32d10 (save 52)
Frightful Presence DC 50
fly speed 300 ft;
AC 56 = -8 size +54 natural;
Caster Level 27,
Bonus feat: Improved Spell Capacity x2
Total number of general feats 19 (5 may be epic)
Skill Points: 1102 (max ranks 58)
it is, for a beginning :D needs more detail but thanks!
no no, I mean the details for the various attacks and special qualities. what you say should come later base first, refinment later.
don't think I do not appreciate the Gold dragon, thanks again!
Ok under the draconomicon exist 3.5 rules to update the dragons you can see a example in Power of Faerun (a red dragon CR 40) pag 121 and the rules of epic dragons in the pag 99 of Draconomicon say how advance the dragon, remember that a dragon can select epic feat starting her old age category.
Oma is right. Draconomicon pg. 86-100 has a few dragon specific Prestige Classes, as well as rules for advancing dragons past Great Wyrm via "virtual age categories" rather than just via adding hit dice. The "virtual age category" progression is a refinement and update of rules for doing so that were put forth in the Epic Level Handbook.
It's worth noting though that that is an optional manner of progression. As intelligent creatures, Dragons can progress by taking class levels just as a bugbear or human might, or can continue to take Dragon hit dice in a manner similar to any other creature progressing in their racial hit dice. (The dragon's hit dice are outlined on page 308 of the Monster Manuel.)
For the damage bonus you just look at the new and improved STR score and use that. For the example I believe the STR went up 8 points for an increased of +4 in modifier. When it comes to bonus hp from CON you just drop what you see, take the new CON modifier and multiply that by the number of HD.
With CON 41 you have a +15 modifier and then you mulitply that by 55 HD for 825 bonus hp.
Advancing HD works the same way advancing HD/levels works for PCs.
CR advances a little bit differently.
Oversimplifying, a 200HD Dragon = 100 CR.
A 200 HD anything would have 1 feat per 3 hd or levels.
200HD Dragon = +200 BAB , (X/2)+2 on all three saves , (200+3)*(6+intmod) skill points
should one use draconomicon for advancing, or the SRD? the srd gets very specific and does not mention the time dragon at all.
The advancement rules in the Monster Manual allow dragons
theoretically infinite progression even beyond the
statistics of great wyrm. This book lets dragons improve
more than their Hit Dice as they progress to unparalleled
heights of power.
Age Category: A standard dragon gains one “virtual age
category” for every 3 Hit Dice it gains beyond the great
wyrm stage. A 61 HD red dragon, with 21 more Hit Dice
than a standard great wyrm, has gained seven virtual age
categories, meaning its effective age category is nineteen.
Abilities that function once per day per age category or otherwise
use the dragon’s age category as part of a calculation
use this adjusted number.
Size: One important element of dragon advancement is
increasing size. The dragons that don’t reach Colossal size by
the great wyrm stage can never reach it according to the
standard advancement rules. When advancing a dragon,
consider its basic size group: smaller (black, brass, copper,
and white dragons), normal (blue, bronze, and green dragons),
or larger (gold, red, and silver dragons). A dragon that
is Tiny as a wyrmling is in the smaller group, a dragon that
is Small as a wyrmling and never reaches Colossal size is in
the normal group, and a dragon that is Small to Large as a
wyrmling and reaches Colossal by the great wyrm stage is in
the larger group.
A smaller-sized dragon becomes Colossal when it gains
two age categories (+6 HD) beyond great wyrm. It increases
to Colossal+ (see below) when it gains an additional four age
categories (+18 HD total). Thus, a white great wyrm reaches
Colossal size at 42 HD and Colossal+ at 54 HD, while a brass
great wyrm becomes Colossal at 43 HD and Colossal+ at
A normal-sized dragon becomes Colossal when it gains
one age category (3 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm. It increases
to Colossal+ when it gains an additional four age categories
(+15 HD total). Thus, a green great wyrm reaches Colossal
size at 41 HD and Colossal+ size at 53 HD, while a bronze
dragon becomes Colossal at 42 HD and Colossal+ at 54 HD.
A larger-sized dragon becomes Colossal+ when it gains
four age categories (12 HD) more than it needed to reach
the Colossal size. Thus, a silver or red dragon becomes
Colossal+ at 52 HD, and a gold dragon becomes Colossal+ at
Colossal+ Size: Although there is no size category larger
than Colossal, the largest advanced dragons have a greater
reach and deal more damage with their attacks than other
Colossal dragons. These dragons are said to be of Colossal+
(“Colossal plus&rdquo size.
A Colossal+ dragon has a space of 30 feet, like any other
Colossal dragon, but its reach is 10 feet longer than normal
with each attack form, and it has a proportionately longer
tail slap and tail sweep. A Colossal+ dragon deals 6d6 points
of damage with its bite attack, 4d8 with its claws, 4d6 with
its wings, 4d8 with its tail slap, 6d6 with its crush, and 4d6
with its tail sweep.
A Colossal+ dragon’s line-shaped breath weapon extends
160 feet (5 feet high and 5 feet wide, as normal). A Colossal+
dragon’s cone-shaped breath weapon is 80 feet long, 80 feet
high, and 80 feet wide. The size modifier for these dragons
Armor Class: An advanced dragon’s natural armor bonus
increases by +1 for every Hit Die it gains beyond the great
wyrm stage. (You can use this rule for lesser dragon advancement
as well, since natural armor and Hit Dice always
increase at the same rate.)
Breath Weapon: If an advanced dragon’s breath
weapon deals damage, the damage typically increases by 2
dice for every virtual age category the dragon gains. The
two exceptions in the Monster Manual are the brass and
white dragons, whose breath weapon damage increases by
only 1 die per age category. The saving throw DC against
the breath weapon remains 10 + 1/2 the dragon’s HD + its
Spell Resistance: An advanced dragon’s spell resistance
increases by 2 per additional age category.
Speed: An advanced dragon’s fly speed, maneuverability,
land speed, and other special movement types (swim,
burrow, and so on) do not change.
Ability Scores: A great wyrm’s Strength and Constitution
scores both increase by 2 points for every virtual age
category the dragon gains. Its Dexterity remains
unchanged. Its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
increase by 2 points for every two virtual age categories
the dragon gains.
Special Abilities: Dragons do not gain additional spelllike
abilities. When a dragon gains one virtual age category
beyond the great wyrm stage, its damage reduction improves
Caster Level: A great wyrm’s sorcerer caster level
increases by 2 for every virtual age category the dragon
Feats: Like ordinary dragons, advanced dragons receive
one feat for every 4 Hit Dice they have. Any feats gained
after the dragon reaches old age can be epic feats (see the
descriptions earlier in this chapter).
Challenge Rating: An advanced dragon’s Challenge
Rating increases by 2 per additional virtual age category.
All other dragon statistics are as presented for dragons in
general and specific dragon varieties in the Monster Manual
and other sources.
just for referencing purposes
I thought the link up in post #3 should have be reference enough.
how many years do you feel is exactly each virtual category?
I feel it's not a measure of years, it's a measure of towns eaten and magic wrought. If they're a fairly active dragon getting lots of exercise, fresh virgins, and artifact level loot then they could be progressing an age category every few centuries or even a few decades if they raze a good sized empire or other activity. On the other hand, if the mostly sit in their lairs, count their hoards, and eat only the occasional mountain goat or hapless orc then they may never achieve even their first virtual age category.
A good analogy would be a retiree. There are those retirees who just slowly sink into a reclining chair after they retire, they never really do much or keep themselves up. These are the people who tend to age quicker since they aren't keeping healthy and in this analogy are dragons who never do much after Great Wyrm. These are the dragons that after conquering a dwarven mine they just sit on everything until a bunch of meddling dwarves and their halfling too show up and ruin their nap centuries long.
On the other hand, there are those retirees who decide that they've spent their whole life preparing for retirement and now they plan to do EVERYTHING. They vacation, they walk, they hike, they take up kickboxing, and they never let themselves get decrepit even if they get old. As dragons, these are the types of people who continue to progress virtual age categories past what "super dragon puberty" does for them.
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