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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 6:52AM
#71
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If you can convince the vampire and/or the rogue to take Agile Opportunist, this can be a huge boost to his damage, provided you play something that can slide allies. Another big group optimization you can do is convince everyone to go radiant (radiant holy symbol/staff/whatever) and play a Morninglord, which will add a ton of damage to all of you.
Warlord is still the best suggestion though. Hail of Steel will do a lot towards killing a bad guy in this party. Just make sure the warlock has Eldritch Blast, the vampire has Vampire Slam, and the rogue is a Brutal Scoundrel or has Babau Gauntlets of Melee Training.
On the item front, make sure people are keeping up with the right armor (make sure ACs not too low from not choosing the right crafted armor for their level). Suggest stuff like Strikebacks to the vampire to give him extra MBA per fight, etc.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 7:16AM
#72
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2009
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Hey Weepingminotaur....
Is it possible to find someone else to invite to your table to come play a defender? Even something simple like a knight would help with a lot of the issues you're having, so it doesn't necessarily have to be someone experienced in 4E. On the other hand, if you found someone who is relatively familiar with boardgaming conceits (even if not 4E) and ideally someone with a personality that might be fun to game with, and you could start looking at some sort of optimized fighter, warden or battlemind to really inflict some punishment for picking on you and the strikers.
It's entirely possible you already know someone who would love to play. If not, look at local game shops or online "players wanted" boards.
I acknowledge that's not the advice you're looking for, but your question (play a warlord) seems to be answered already. Also, a defender with a good MBA opens up some nice options for a warlord that don't exist in your group as is.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 7:36AM
#73
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2005
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If you can convince the vampire and/or the rogue to take Agile Opportunist, this can be a huge boost to his damage, provided you play something that can slide allies.
Great suggestion, thanks. I think I'm going to try to convince people to optimize their MBAs. That's a battle I think I have a decent chance of winning.
Another big group optimization you can do is convince everyone to go radiant (radiant holy symbol/staff/whatever) and play a Morninglord, which will add a ton of damage to all of you.
See, I tried that with the previous build, which is actually a Morninglord cleric. But nobody responded to my call to pick radiant powers. The warlock has moved a bit in the direction of getting on the radiant cheese train, but not enough. The rogue and vampire haven't at all.
Warlord is still the best suggestion though. Hail of Steel will do a lot towards killing a bad guy in this party. Just make sure the warlock has Eldritch Blast, the vampire has Vampire Slam, and the rogue is a Brutal Scoundrel or has Babau Gauntlets of Melee Training.
Warlock and vampire are set. The rogue is an artful dodger, not a brutal scoundrel. I'll suggest the gauntlets to him, as I doubt he'll want to burn a feat on Melee Training and the nerf to it makes it less desirable anyway.
On the item front, make sure people are keeping up with the right armor (make sure ACs not too low from not choosing the right crafted armor for their level). Suggest stuff like Strikebacks to the vampire to give him extra MBA per fight, etc.
We did do a mini-rebuild of the vampire a while back to get her up to snuff, and she does indeed have Strikebacks, but you can only lead a horse to water, you can't make him drink.  She'll never be an optimizer. The best I can do is give her as many extra attacks as I can and keep her patched up.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 7:43AM
#74
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2005
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Hey Weepingminotaur....
Is it possible to find someone else to invite to your table to come play a defender? Even something simple like a knight would help with a lot of the issues you're having, so it doesn't necessarily have to be someone experienced in 4E. On the other hand, if you found someone who is relatively familiar with boardgaming conceits (even if not 4E) and ideally someone with a personality that might be fun to game with, and you could start looking at some sort of optimized fighter, warden or battlemind to really inflict some punishment for picking on you and the strikers.
It's entirely possible you already know someone who would love to play. If not, look at local game shops or online "players wanted" boards.
I acknowledge that's not the advice you're looking for, but your question (play a warlord) seems to be answered already. Also, a defender with a good MBA opens up some nice options for a warlord that don't exist in your group as is.
Thanks for the suggestion. It's possible, but unlikely. Our group is a closed circle. At this point, we're not going to invite total strangers to a table of friends who've known each other for 15+ years. Comfort level and getting along at the table are as important to us as optimization. So we'll likely just try to improve our current situation.
I do agree with you that my original question seems to have been answered. I now have a lot of reading and building to do.  Thank you all.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 7:47AM
#75
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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If you can get the rogue to have a decent MBA or even if he has an RBA (its not clear if he uses a dagger for instance) then warlord or hybrid warlord is the best way to go. Its really not hard for a rogue to have a good basic attack, but he has to put some effort into it.
The one other suggestion that hasn't been mentioned much is shaman. Not as good as the warlord at granting BAs, but it is fairly good at enabling and puts another "body" on the front line. Animist, eagle, or worldspeaker could work in your group.
Honestly, the biggest issue as others have pointed out is that everyone else just goes and makes their own PC and it sounds like they don't do anything to ensure their own or the groups survival. Best thing to do would be for the vampire to switch to a vryloyka simple defender of some sort, probably a knight. Or take a vampire hertiage feat with some other race and play a simple defender like how he plays his vampire now. If he doesn't care about optimizing that much it still lets him be a "vampire", but he will be a lot more useful without much effort on his part. I had a player like that in my group where he was always attached to a concept but didn't look into what the class mechanics were and he almost always ended up playing "strikers" that didn't work. Usually the optimizers in the group were able to help guide him into a different class or build within the same class with the exact same concept and all of sudden his PC was contributing a lot more.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 8:11AM
#76
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2009
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Thanks for the suggestion. It's possible, but unlikely. Our group is a closed circle. At this point, we're not going to invite total strangers to a table of friends who've known each other for 15+ years. Comfort level and getting along at the table are as important to us as optimization. So we'll likely just try to improve our current situation.
Understandable. For what it's worth, I run a regular group that has known each other for about the same length of time. The taclord in the party had to bow out due to family issues, and I invited someone I knew from LFR to step in. It's worked out rather well...so it's not impossible to introduce new blood into that dynamic. It does require careful selection, and I can see where that might not work out for you.
Anyways, good luck.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 8:29AM
#77
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2005
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If you can get the rogue to have a decent MBA or even if he has an RBA (its not clear if he uses a dagger for instance) then warlord or hybrid warlord is the best way to go.
I'm pretty sure he's using a kukri at the moment. *facepalm Re: hybrid warlord, what you suggest to pair with the hybrid warlord? Fighter? Swordmage?
Its really not hard for a rogue to have a good basic attack, but he has to put some effort into it.
He's put no effort into it at all thus far, so I have some work ahead of me.
The one other suggestion that hasn't been mentioned much is shaman. Not as good as the warlord at granting BAs, but it is fairly good at enabling and puts another "body" on the front line. Animist, eagle, or worldspeaker could work in your group.
I'm not a huge fan of the shaman, so I think I'll stick with warlord or a hybrid.
Honestly, the biggest issue as others have pointed out is that everyone else just goes and makes their own PC and it sounds like they don't do anything to ensure their own or the groups survival.
Yup, and it's something I tried and failed to prevent. When we were rolling up characters for the campaign, I kept emailing my fellow players and asking how we could synergize our builds effectively. I got very little in the way of response, and they all chose to play strikers.
Best thing to do would be for the vampire to switch to a vryloyka simple defender of some sort, probably a knight. Or take a vampire hertiage feat with some other race and play a simple defender like how he plays his vampire now. If he doesn't care about optimizing that much it still lets him be a "vampire", but he will be a lot more useful without much effort on his part. I had a player like that in my group where he was always attached to a concept but didn't look into what the class mechanics were and he almost always ended up playing "strikers" that didn't work. Usually the optimizers in the group were able to help guide him into a different class or build within the same class with the exact same concept and all of sudden his PC was contributing a lot more.
I wish we'd been more proactive about that when we started the campaign. IMO it's too late now to suggest a change in class. She seems to be happy playing the vampire, despite the general suck of the class. But she, at least, has a good MBA in vampire slam, so if I go any variant of attack-enabling warlord, she'll definitely stand to benefit.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 8:38AM
#78
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2007
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You know, as much as I deride its usage normally, in such a sucky party, it might be justified to buy a Belt of Sonnlinor Cheese for the Vampire and send her in to Rambo half the opposition down. Just as a matter of evening the score a bit, really. Considering it seems damn near impossible to get anybody else to listen much (since c'mon, the Warlock can't afford to swap one power?), this might be the best solution here.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 8:58AM
#79
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2009
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As far as hybrids go you could try out a Ironwrought Warforged(CON/INT) Shielding Swormage|LazyLord. Get a Farbond Spellblade and Bracers of Mental Might so you get use of some of the ranged strength powers and/or melee strength powers of the Warlord. One healing use in Heroic and look to get the level 5 Warlord Daily Stand the Fallen(w/Bracers of Mental Might). Take Fight On in paragon for an extra heal. Make some suggestions to your friends on what you can do to help them be better at striking, in the forms of better MBA/RBAs, and then be a real leader in combat. Use tactics and placement to bring down the foes.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 9:01AM
#80
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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Shaman is definitely not for everyone so I understand not wanting to play one. Artificer is a good one to hybrid with warlord. One of the best charop builds is called killswitch. But warlord hybrids well with a lot of classes. Ask someone like armisael who know more than I do about building them, but you can go strength primary with a class like fighter or cleric or pick lazy warlord powers and focus more on int or cha buffs like with a bard or artificer, which is what killswitch does. Added: I was betting that your rogue was using a rapier or something similar since that is what the player I mentioned above used when he made an artful dodger rogue, also without melee training. The kukri was not on my radar, but not very surprising to read that is what he picked or that he picked superior weapon proficiency before melee training.
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